[ImmortalShade]

I looked around the forums and have yet to find an answer. So question: Does the Yamaha Sakura Fubuki get any special benefits to fire in full auto mode?

This question assumes that the gun has been modded for FA. I ask because base the weapon is treat as a SA for firing bursts.

[Mirikon]

No. You mod it for FA, you take all the normal FA penalties. The Fubuki treats BF recoil differently, but that is a stated exception.

Now, do I wish there was a SMG or Assault rifle version of the Fubuki? You bet your ass I do. But as it stands, no.

[ImmortalShade]

was guessing as much, still surprised i dont see it used more often as either a SnS platform or just as a base weapon. i love being able to have four separate ammo loads in it.

[RHat]

Better to mod the Thunderbolt to get the appropriate RC - personalized grip, underbarrel weight, and an accessory stock (explicitly legal for pistols).  Meanwhile, you've still got enough slots for the Improved Range Finder and Additional Clip; and all your accessory locations are still open.  Alternatively, you could grab the Firing Selection Change to make the thing FA, but it's hard to get the further 3 or 4 points of RC.  If you ditch both the IRF and the Additional Clip, you net two slots to work with, but there's not much to use it for RC-wise, so you're looking at dealing with -3 or -4 from recoil - if you don't mind that, then this works out for you.  Personally, I prefer to keep my recoil fully compensated.

[ImmortalShade]

out of curiosity what all do the two of you think the assault rifle version would look like stat wise?

[Mantis]

You do know the Sakura Fubuki is explicitly stated as not being able to take the fire selection change right? See Arsenal pg 151. Weapons with exotic ammo or unusual loading mechanisms can't take that mod.

[Mirikon]

out of curiosity what all do the two of you think the assault rifle version would look like stat wise?

Hmm. Well, I'd probably put it like this:

Yamaha Sakura Taifu (Assault Rifle)
6P Damage, -1 AP, SA/BF/FA, (1) RC, 20(ml)x4 Ammo. 16F Availability. 5000 Nuyen.
Standard Upgrades: Electronic Firing, Folding Stock
The “Cherry-Blossom Typhoon” is the newest in Yamaha’s line of electronic weapons that feature no moving parts. Rather than a standard magazine, the bullets are stacked in-line in each of the four barrels, allowing the firing of ultra-fast short bursts. The Taifu may only fire narrow bursts (not wide), but burst recoil is handled like SA recoil (–1 Recoil on the second burst each Action Phase only), and recoil from a long burst in FA is handled like BF recoil (-2 on the first burst, or -3 on the second burst during each Action Phase). However, the user may still only make one long burst per Action Phase as normal. Full bursts incur a -6 recoil penalty instead of the normal -9. Includes an integral folding stock.

[ImmortalShade]

You do know the Sakura Fubuki is explicitly stated as not being able to take the fire selection change right? See Arsenal pg 151. Weapons with exotic ammo or unusual loading mechanisms can't take that mod.

eh, our group isnt too worried about the nitty gritty, there are enough inconsistencies that we generally follow the what makes sense line of thought, if some one can make the arguement for it then we generally let it fly. e.g. the high powered cambering/rounds. if you read through Gun haven/2 then there are several example of high powered versions of the different types of rounds not just high powered rounds. for our group any ammo can become high powered, it just raises the availability and cost by half. on the surface it might not seem like much but ammo can be expensive after awhile.

[SunRunner]

You do know the Sakura Fubuki is explicitly stated as not being able to take the fire selection change right? See Arsenal pg 151. Weapons with exotic ammo or unusual loading mechanisms can't take that mod.

eh, our group isnt too worried about the nitty gritty, there are enough inconsistencies that we generally follow the what makes sense line of thought, if some one can make the arguement for it then we generally let it fly. e.g. the high powered cambering/rounds. if you read through Gun haven/2 then there are several example of high powered versions of the different types of rounds not just high powered rounds. for our group any ammo can become high powered, it just raises the availability and cost by half. on the surface it might not seem like much but ammo can be expensive after awhile.

Heh you dont understand what High power ammo is and how guns work then. You have to adapt the weapon with the High power mod so that it can take the repeated applications of high chamber pressure. Any gun could fire the High power ammo in its caliber the problem is because its over charged the chamber pressures are to high and its essentially like firing a proof test round every time you pull the trigger. This means that some time in the near future (that means 100 rounds or less, alot of it is going to have to do with how many rounds your weapon has seen) your going to experience a chamber rupture. Chamber ruptures mean the gun explodes and its generally not good for the operator of the gun. Manufactures fire 1 or 2 proof rounds out of most guns as a final safety check when they come off the line and after that they never see that kinda chamber pressure again. The best real life example of this is to look at 5.56 NATO rounds vs civilian .223 rounds. 5.56 NATO is a military chamber spec while the .223 is a civilian chamber spec. A 5.56 NATO chambered weapon can fire .223 rounds all day long with no problems try firing 5.56 NATO rounds out of a .223 Chambered weapon and you are holding a ticking time bomb. Note these rounds are the same caliber and .223 can Chamber and fire 5.56 NATO just does not end well as your rolling the dice every time you pull the trigger. The rounds are with in a 1000th of and inch but the NATO chambering is designed for higher pressure and has a longer lead in the chamber and this results in really bad things when you put the round in the .223 chamber. Now the one thing SR does that is pretty silly is saying that once you high power adapt the gun can no longer use non high power ammo. Its the same caliber and ammo spec its just a rework on the chambering to take higher pressures which should not preclude it from firing lower pressure ammo types. Subsonic ammo is a nice example of this, The rounds use less charge so they have a lower velocity and dont break the sound barrier but generally have much lower chamber pressures then the standard versions of the round.

[dertechie]

I read his house rule rather differently, as saying that you could make any kind of ammo in HP.  For example, HP Ex-Ex, mating the explosive charge of Ex-Ex with the more powerful powder charge of HP for +3 DV/-2 AP  .  So long as the gun is modded to accept the higher chamber pressure without Bad Things, all should be fine.  I tend to read the SR prohibition of non-HP rounds as 'yeah, we upped the caliber while we were at it', like taking a .44 Magnum and increasing that to .500 S&W, though I do agree that it shouldn't prohibit non-HP ammo (since we already see several calibers squeezed into each class).

[Anarkitty]

The restriction that it can no longer use non-HP ammo seems more like a game balance decision than anything attempting to simulate reality.

Or possibly game designers who have about the same depth of understanding about how guns actually work in reality as I do (ie. very little), who assume that HP rounds have to be physically larger, and therefore once the chamber is bored out the usual rounds no longer fit.  This would go along with the "standardized calibers" theory of why ammo works the way it does between gun classes.

[SunRunner]

I would guess that it is a game balance issue, cause if you gonna allow High Power ammo to be used with other ammo mods your really in the situation of why would you ever not want a high power chamber weapon. The only real life issue I could see is that what ever else your doing to the round cant be physically accommodated once you factor in the extra powder for the high power stuff. But at that point were discussing completely made up stuff as most of the shadowrun ammo types don't exist in real life. I think it would be awesome if they put in side bar notes in the books and point out when something is done for the sake of game balance even when real life equivalents would obviously be work able.

[ImmortalShade]

out of curiosity what all do the two of you think the assault rifle version would look like stat wise?

Hmm. Well, I'd probably put it like this:

Yamaha Sakura Taifu (Assault Rifle)
6P Damage, -1 AP, SA/BF/FA, (1) RC, 20(ml)x4 Ammo. 16F Availability. 5000 Nuyen.
Standard Upgrades: Electronic Firing, Folding Stock
The “Cherry-Blossom Typhoon” is the newest in Yamaha’s line of electronic weapons that feature no moving parts. Rather than a standard magazine, the bullets are stacked in-line in each of the four barrels, allowing the firing of ultra-fast short bursts. The Taifu may only fire narrow bursts (not wide), but burst recoil is handled like SA recoil (–1 Recoil on the second burst each Action Phase only), and recoil from a long burst in FA is handled like BF recoil (-2 on the first burst, or -3 on the second burst during each Action Phase). However, the user may still only make one long burst per Action Phase as normal. Full bursts incur a -6 recoil penalty instead of the normal -9. Includes an integral folding stock.

I like that setup. I would probably bump the tubes up to 25 each just to round out the ammo to 100 (just one of those little things i am ocd about).

Which mega owns Yamaha? any one know? seems like it would be one of the asian ones.

I read his house rule rather differently, as saying that you could make any kind of ammo in HP.  For example, HP Ex-Ex, mating the explosive charge of Ex-Ex with the more powerful powder charge of HP for +3 DV/-2 AP  .  So long as the gun is modded to accept the higher chamber pressure without Bad Things, all should be fine.  I tend to read the SR prohibition of non-HP rounds as 'yeah, we upped the caliber while we were at it', like taking a .44 Magnum and increasing that to .500 S&W, though I do agree that it shouldn't prohibit non-HP ammo (since we already see several calibers squeezed into each class).

pretty much this. but thats a discussion for another thread.
personally I am archer more than a shooter and i have the most "weapons experience" in the group, with most of that knowledge coming from the history and discovery channel so our firearm rules are probably not the most realistic. though I know of several rifles throughout history that were designed to accept rounds of smaller calibers just so the armies using them could scavenge their opponents ammo, so HPC weapons using smaller rounds seems like it should be kosher. but hey like i said topic for a different thread.

[Michael Chandra]

The fluff talks about possible, experimental, High-Power Special Ammo. Damage-wise, though, High-Power is already superior to nearly every type*, so adding special mods to that really ups the ante and needs to kept in check. If a player manages to get more than a single clip in a month, it'd be too easy. And if you use it, I strongly suggest using the (80 HP / 20 Regular = ) x4 multiplier. So High-Power Anti-Tank rounds would cost 100 nuyen. Each. At +2/-7, though, that's definitely worth it against the right targets.

*: Especially if you use the interpretation rule that its 2 extra recoil can be compensated, so 3 RC is enough to fire 2 High-Power shots without recoil penalties.

[Mirikon]

Well, normal High-Powered rounds have an availability second only to Anti-Tank rounds as far as bullets go. Hell, it is easier to pick up Assault Cannon ammo than these things. Assume that the availability difference between High-Powered EXEX and regular EXEX is the same as the one between High-Powered and regular ammo, and you're golden.

Also, one way to cut back on the people using High-Powered rounds is to rigidly enforce that -2 all shots get. As it stands, there's legitimate arguments on either side for whether or not RC should be able to negate that penalty. Personally, I'd rather hit the target more often than worry about the size of the holes when I do manage it. Only thing I'd consider using high-powered for would be a sniper rifle, and even then, there's better choices out there, like a Barrett with APDS, which is actually easier to get hold of.