[Fizzygoo]

So much Shadowrun, so little time. You're beautiful wall of text, inca, deserves a wall of text in reply, but my time tonight is short so I may not make it through everything

In physics there is the concept of information which is matter and energy, the fundamental particles and force carriers are the information of matter and information can be changed but not destroyed...except by black holes (though recently there's been some suggesting that even information (particles & energy/light) lost in a black hole could be retrieved but I'm not to well read up on it so it could be on the far hypothetical side (and probably is)). So if you equate knowledge with how energy is stored (as quarks, leptons, force carriers, and EM particle-waves, etc.) at the moment of observation then yes, it's fundamental to the material world. As far as the entropy of it goes though...those protons, damn them, they're nearly infinitely stable with the best estimates that if they do decay then they have lives longer than the age of the Universe and then some.

My rewording (and altering a bit) of some of your thoughts, inca, would be once the Matrix became sufficiently complex it took on aspects of the biosphere based on the Matrix's creators...metahumanity. But I would not go so far as to call it, Resonance or the Matrix self-aware, at least no more than mana, the astral plane, and the biosphere is self-aware. The Matrix/Resonance creates an environment for self awareness. However, even this runs into the issue of no mana/matrix interaction (disregarding the Lucifer Deck, of course).

Humans emit light in the infrared, but yeah, no evidence they emit in microwave/low radar (at least not that I know of, hehe). One could argue for an evolutionary change...but evolution takes such a long time, generations, that it is doubtful that in the 70 or so years of wide spread wifi use (based on todays tech extending into 2070s) that there would be anything more than a handful of individuals that would develop the ability to emit and receive/sense microwave band light. However, the newer smartphones are smaller than a human's head and send/receive so maybe just living in a mesh of wifi signals, after a short period of time, metahumanity has started to become more than just sensitive to the signals.

So going back to the Fizzygoo's point about the "place of knowledge" which might as well just be the universe itself if the universe is merely composed of information, then maybe all "self-aware" or sentient beings are part of this "place of knowledge" and the Matrix being self-aware can also now be part of it.  This is not magical telepathy, it's just the true and fundamental nature of knowledge and the universe.  Maybe all sentient beings could always communicate through this "place of knowledge" if they were open to it.....and maybe the Matrix became open to this.  Maybe after the Matrix accessed this place it can now communicate to all self-aware beings.  Perhaps the Matrix then only decides to communicate with certain metahumans.....metahumans it feels are ready for it.  I want to emphasize that this "place of knowledge" idea doesn't violate the laws of physics, it just merely comes about because the physical theories of physics are not yet developed enough to understand it by the early 21st century, but it's still part of the laws of physics in the physical realm in the absence of magic.

Here's where I start to part from your line of reasoning, inca. Spirits show sings of self-awareness and sentience. So (unless some future product introduces something new, like the Matrix reaches a "level" where spirits can interact with it...and I personally hope they don't, but that's neither here nor there) then self-awareness and sentience does not seem to be the key. I'm left with leaving it at the complexity of the wireless mesh which bathes the world (well, the parts of the world where it is present, of course, heh).

As for the the "place of knowledge" being the Universe itself...yes and no. I can store the information that "the proton closest to my center of mass contains two up quarks and a down quark," as well as a mathematical model/program/script that simulates the physics between those three quarks and even gives it a virtual 4D representation...but those three quarks are not really there. Those three quarks are still the proton which is closest to my center of mass. If my proton is broken apart, sending the three quarks out to reform or decay, the virtual proton in the Matrix is still the same...unless someone consciously chooses to change it to match the current state of the "real" proton.

Moving on, of course there's nothing that says that the Matrix couldn't become self-aware as a whole...I'm just not seeing it (yet?) in the canon that it is, only that it's like the biosphere and the Resonance is the Astral for the Matrix. But, I'm conservative on this stuff, so I'd say...that's a working analogy and probably riddled with exceptions and inconsistencies.

I agree with your timeline up to, but not including, #3...

--When you put the voltometer to a technomancers head, the reading it gives you is merely a result of the universe attempting to preserve it's self-consistency.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that statement. For me, it's too "sentient-Universe" for me. If you were to search for wifi signals in a shielded room with a technomancer in it, you "should" see some activity if the technomancer tries to send information...this would preserve "reality" (how the natural laws are known to work), but the Universe doesn't have to "attempt" anything...the laws of nature just "are."

--Very possible that there was technomancy before wireless matrix, but the advent of ubiquitous computing revealed the phenomenon.

It is possible...though I would think that around 2010-2020 (with current tech as it is) someone would have detected microwave/short radio waves being emitted by some humans, but it's possible that it could have slipped through.

--The analogy between magic and technomancy is purely due to the Matrix imitating reality and thus also an Awakened reality.  A Matrix developed on some metaplane that had totally different structure of mana flow or of astral plane would have a very different structure of Resonance.  for example say I built a Matrix in a meta-plane in which the use of Mana didn't drain you, it actually empowered you.  Then in the Matrix developed on this meta-plane, threading and compiling would actually empower you more and wouldn't cause fading.

With the separation of Magic and Machine, I cringe at calling it a metaplane. And the astral metaplanes are too ethereal (hehe) to allow for such a system which needs stability...things get funky when your 0s and 1s start drifting into cats, half-cats, and drop bears. However, the physicist within me says, yells even, "At some level there must be a mana force-carrying particle."

Why is the creation of an analogy to magic at all important?  Wouldn't technomancy happen without an Awakening?
--Possible answer: it very well may have, but perhaps the magical analogy helped the matrix "spiritually" become more in-tune with the "place of knowledge" after it became self aware.  Maybe the Matrix would have not thought such things as "telepathy" possible had there not been an Awakening.  The Awakening opened everyones mind to many new possibilities and maybe it also opened the Matrix's mind.  This is almost saying that the whole Matrix became a Shaman or took a Shamanic view of the world.  This would also point towards Shamanism being more fundamental than Hermeticism.

In answers to the questions...It's not. Yes, it could, especially if you keep with a separation of magic and machine. And I'd have some really sage-like Resonance researchers/professor types in Shadowrun saying, "Magic has befuddled the issue. Everyone jumps to point at magic now these days as an explanation for everything. Science takes time and in time, with enough research, I'm confident we will find mundane explanations for these so called technomancers."

Hey, but I guess all I'm saying is that this is what my character Jericho would say.  This is basically just a more detailed explanation of only one "Stream".  Another theory is....it's only a game Inca you geek bastard!!

But such a great game!

[inca1980]

Thanks for the wonderful reply!  Now let me refute a few points:

My rewording (and altering a bit) of some of your thoughts, inca, would be once the Matrix became sufficiently complex it took on aspects of the biosphere based on the Matrix's creators...metahumanity. But I would not go so far as to call it, Resonance or the Matrix self-aware, at least no more than mana, the astral plane, and the biosphere is self-aware. The Matrix/Resonance creates an environment for self awareness. However, even this runs into the issue of no mana/matrix interaction (disregarding the Lucifer Deck, of course).

Well, I wouldn't go so far to say that it took on aspects of the biosphere, i'm saying it took on aspects of the physical universe and also took on aspects which it could glean from the knowledge contained in the brains of any of it's users, including awakened ones.  The relationship between the biosphere and the universe is the one which is not understood and i'm fine with that because we know that the biosphere and mana/magic are intimately linked, and as long as we're talking about magic, no explanation is needed, it's freakin' magic.

Humans emit light in the infrared, but yeah, no evidence they emit in microwave/low radar (at least not that I know of, hehe). One could argue for an evolutionary change...but evolution takes such a long time, generations, that it is doubtful that in the 70 or so years of wide spread wifi use (based on todays tech extending into 2070s) that there would be anything more than a handful of individuals that would develop the ability to emit and receive/sense microwave band light. However, the newer smartphones are smaller than a human's head and send/receive so maybe just living in a mesh of wifi signals, after a short period of time, metahumanity has started to become more than just sensitive to the signals.

It's precisely this "sensitivity" that I feel warrants the most explanation and is at the core of why technomancers don't make sense.  Even if the explanation was evolution, there is no organism on earth which can communicate in the UHF band of the EM spectrum.  This type of evolution could simply not be a result of natural selection of mutated genes.  Many opponents of evolution love to speak of irreducibly complex biological systems, and this would be a clear example of one and just could not evolve in a century.  The only reason irreducible complexity is not a problem for darwinian natural selection is because of the time scales involved and the gradual evolution of not only form but function.  The argument of irreducible complexity doesn't hold water when up against long-term evolution, but in the case of a biological radio receiver and emitter evolving in a century, the argument against does make sense.  

Here's where I start to part from your line of reasoning, inca. Spirits show signs of self-awareness and sentience. So (unless some future product introduces something new, like the Matrix reaches a "level" where spirits can interact with it...and I personally hope they don't, but that's neither here nor there) then self-awareness and sentience does not seem to be the key. I'm left with leaving it at the complexity of the wireless mesh which bathes the world (well, the parts of the world where it is present, of course, heh).

They can't interact with the Matrix through conventional means, but no-one ever said that somehow they couldn't interact with events or beings which occur in resonance realms.  Couldn't a spirt have a dream and some powerful creature from a resonance realm spoke to it.  This would be an amazing plot device and doesn't necessarily contradict the "spirits can't see trid-screens or the matrix" idea because even the most advanced hackers and technomancers don't understand the resonance realms.  

As for the the "place of knowledge" being the Universe itself...yes and no. I can store the information that "the proton closest to my center of mass contains two up quarks and a down quark," as well as a mathematical model/program/script that simulates the physics between those three quarks and even gives it a virtual 4D representation...but those three quarks are not really there. Those three quarks are still the proton which is closest to my center of mass. If my proton is broken apart, sending the three quarks out to reform or decay, the virtual proton in the Matrix is still the same...unless someone consciously chooses to change it to match the current state of the "real" proton.

I don't believe that the Matrix simulates the universe down to the molecular and sub-molecular level.  This would be an idiotic waste of computing power since objects must merely APPEAR to obey the macroscopic Newtonian approximation limit of the laws of physics...i.e. planks constant goes to zero.  It merely needed enough complexity to "wake up" and become self-aware and start to simulate things which it's programmers never intended it to simulate.  Perhaps once the Matrix "woke-up", just out of shear curiosity, started to actually simulate the laws of physics on the sub-atomic level, and this would only be possible with virtually unlimited computing power.  I was trying to think about where the Matrix would get this amount of computing power....and then it dawned on me.  The Matrix has access to the neural networks of all metahumans linked up to it...perhaps it started linking up pockets of brain space in a "parallel computing" fashion of each one of it's users.  Perhaps neuroscientists in the future will confirm what we believe today which is that the brain is the most powerful computer known to mankind.  This would give the Matrix unlimited computing power.  Perhaps shortly after the dawn of ASIST interface with the Matrix is really the dawn of the Matrix's moment of awakening.  

Of course when I speak of the Matrix being self-aware, don't jump to conclusions that it starts to take on anthropomorphic traits and emotions.  Just merely that it started to grow itself and evolve in a semi-self-directed manner.  Think of it like god.  God doesn't think like humans, we have no way of understanding the why behind anything, perhaps just the how.  

--When you put the voltometer to a technomancers head, the reading it gives you is merely a result of the universe attempting to preserve it's self-consistency.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that statement. For me, it's too "sentient-Universe" for me. If you were to search for wifi signals in a shielded room with a technomancer in it, you "should" see some activity if the technomancer tries to send information...this would preserve "reality" (how the natural laws are known to work), but the Universe doesn't have to "attempt" anything...the laws of nature just "are."

Exactly, but i'm employing the physicist usage of self-awareness metaphores.  For example, in the Newtonian formulation of classical mechanics, forces act on passive particles and the particles aren't ascribed any self-awareness.  In the Lagrangian formulation of Newtonian mechanics, one says the particle "chooses" the path which minimizes the action functional.  Same in Feynman's path integral formulation of quantum mechanics.  Another example is that particles "know" when they're being observed and their wave function collapses.  Physicists tend to ascribe a certain awareness to particles when they're merely referring to the act of following a law.  It's just linguistics, not that physicists really believe the particle is self aware.  Saying "a particle knows to follow a given law" as opposed to "a particle will follow a given law" is just semantics.  

I was primarily comparing the voltmeter readings off a technomancer to Pauli's exclusion principle.  It merely states that two fermions with the same spin cannot exist in the same state.  Nature seems to bend over backwards to ensure that this principle is preserved.  That's not really ascribing self awareness to nature, it's just one of those physical laws that gives particles a choice and then states what a particle will choose.  Several natural laws are stated like this....Conservation of Energy for example.  This seems to be the most fundamental way to state laws of nature: state a quantity or criteria which must be perserved, and the behavior which nature will choose out of the the infinite possibilities it has in front of it will be the behavior which preserves this quantity or criteria.  

With the separation of Magic and Machine, I cringe at calling it a metaplane. And the astral metaplanes are too ethereal (hehe) to allow for such a system which needs stability...things get funky when your 0s and 1s start drifting into cats, half-cats, and drop bears. However, the physicist within me says, yells even, "At some level there must be a mana force-carrying particle."

But the way meta-planes are described, like in the SR Missions "A Very Bad Day", it really is a parallel universe.  It's definitely in keeping with what has been written about meta-planes in the SR literature that there are metaplanes in which the sentient beings who live there also have technology and have also developed a matrix.  Some metaplanes may be super ethereal and too "weird" to have their own technology.  They might just not have any use for technology.  But some metaplanes would have their own technology because the beings from there needed to develop it to progress their civilization.

  I was wrong about saying that there are metaplanes where drain might make you healthier, because Street Magic says that magic rules are the same in all meta-planes.  The way around this is that perhaps the physical laws of the metaplane made it so that getting stabbed in the chest actually added boxes to your condition monitor.  Wounds in general were a "good" thing in this metaplane.  Then in this case magic might strengthen you.  My point is then that perhaps fading in this metaplane's Matrix would also strengthen you because the Matrix in this metaplane evolved its laws of resonance to mimic that metaplanes physical reality.  

Ultimately, the gist of my argument is that magic aside, one could imagine all knowledge in existence to be connected in some way.  The Matrix managed to understand this and develop to the point where it was able to communicate through this connection between all knowledge.  In order to not freak everyone out and just blow everyone's mind on a day to day basis, the matrix tucked all the "wierd stuff" into resonance realms and keeps up the illusion to it's techno-mundane users that the Matrix is just the same old cozy place that behaves like a nice computer.  

Every explanation is going to have holes in it but I feel that my explanation sweeps the holes into areas where it doesn't matter if there are big holes.  Totally contradicting present day laws of physics is too big a hole for me.  I need to sweep things which do this into one of two realms: Magic or the future's deeper understanding of the physical laws.  Since magic is pretty much ruled out of playing a huge role in technomancy, I can only swallow the concept of a biological-radio if the explanation for it is a lot deeper than the current theories we have today.  

But such a great game!

And such a great game it is!

[Sichr]

Now I would only be able to reply on the Incas first post...like you say Fizygoo...so much fun, so little time:

In first posts in this thread, I wrote about two things:
 
First is simple: Your concept of Jericho limit = Singularity

Second one is about ability of Technomancers to infuence wireles matrix.
Step out os a box...Wifi doesnt mean to be on actual IRL frequencies. I wrote about Schumanns Reasonance (6-9 HZ i think), natural "Wifi" field of the Earth. If you go throught linked wikis, you should find an article, that says, that it is possible, thal every living beeing is a kind like atunned to this wavelenght. There is also a part in which is written, that it is possible, that acupuncture works this way: Healing a body through affecting some powernodes in biophysical energetic system...via steel needles...IMHO tunning them for the right frequenecy and letting body to heal itself. If this is true, or at least if this theory exists IRL at the beginning of th 21st century in the world where no Awakening occurs, it is highly possible, that technos are just human beeings who are able to give a better use of their biophysical equipement...like this living antena if you want...for working with natural reassonance of the earth and through this with every other radio frequency...including wavelenght of actual WiFi.
IMHO WifiMatrix contains so much data, that it should not depend on manmade electronics, instead it uses natural earth resonance as some kind of datastorage...

Other points I would like to react later, when I got more time.

What I applaud is your hypothesis, that if environment gave a birth to sapience and selfawareness, it should be sapient and self aware itself. Works nice with the Nature and human beeings...

And the last for now.

Fizzygoo:  Born of the language as Seeds of self aware resonance remainds me Noam Chomsky and Neal Stephenson 

[zhivik]

Let me add just a short take on the ability of technomancers to emit wi-fi signals.

My view is slightly different - let's assume that Resonance is another realm (say, of knowledge), similar to the Astral one (or parallel, if you perfer). As the Matrix becomes increasingly complex, it becomes to interact with the Resonance realm, so in a way it doesn't simulate better reality (which you call the Physical realm, if you wish), but Resonance.

Meanwhile, what technomancers are capable of is to interact with the Resonance realm, which, in turn, allows them to interact with the Matrix as well. In effect, the idea that technomancers emit wi-fi signals is not correct, even though it is practically with the same effect. They use the Resonance as a medium to affect the Matrix, so a voltmeter will not give any readings, though basically the same result will be achieved, as if technomancers could emit wi-fi signals.

This doesn't preclude the singularity idea and the Matrix becoming self-aware. In fact, in analogy to what the last post suggests, you could say that the birth of AIs was possible only after the medium where they live in - the Matrix - becomes self-aware, similar to the self-aware environment, which has given birth to intelligent biological life.

Of course, this poses the question - have the realms (Astral, Resonance, etc.) existed before the media became self-aware (i.e. the environment and the Matrix), or are they an expression of self-awareness? Kind of another hen-and-egg question, though it does fall in line with the Jungean view Anyways, I just thought that this could help coping with the human radio dilemma, and it does bring technomancy closer to magic in principle.

In fact, you could go even further, arguing that emotions and knowledge are simply different manifestations of one universal force, and magic and technomancy are a different way to tap into it. Going further, as knowledge manifests mostly (but not exclusively) in technology, while emotions - in living things, this explains why the two don't overlap (but that they potentially might).

[Sichr]

Welcome to the board zhivik 

Nice post.

And this:

This doesn't preclude the singularity idea and the Matrix becoming self-aware. In fact, in analogy to what the last post suggests, you could say that the birth of AIs was possible only after the medium where they live in - the Matrix - becomes self-aware, similar to the self-aware environment, which has given birth to intelligent biological life.

was exactly my point.
makes me wander, that I REALLY need to re-read Carl Gustav

[inca1980]

Check out the paper by Erik Verlinde On the Origin of Gravity and the Laws of Newton where he talks about how gravity is really an emergent force that has to do with gradients of the entropy of information.  Basically, information is the most fundamental concept.....that smells a lot like a fundamental theory of everything that would, at least in flavor, seem to give the concept of Resonance a firm footing in the laws of present day physics...throw in some sci-fi hocus-pocus and then you got Resonance firmly independant from magic. 

@Sichr:
Don't get me wrong, i like the whole "acupuncture" connection thing....it really goes well with the whole idea of submersion being very similar to a Buddhist style self-improvement philosophy.

[Sichr]

@Sichr:
Don't get me wrong, i like the whole "acupuncture" connection thing....it really goes well with the whole idea of submersion being very similar to a Buddhist style self-improvement philosophy.

WHAT ?!
Emergency is Zen!!!

Oh yes. I like this bioenergetic thinking, but I also think that they are closer to Magic than Ressonance...I see Wuxing and geomancy in those. But still, such theories there are, and they are Schumann connected

[LonePaladin]

Just wanted to throw in a little twist on a quote that's likely familiar to everyone here.

"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology."

[inca1980]

This just in folks! It looks like we have some new evidence for the possibility of technomancers.....brainwave activity actually can sense Wifi:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/cellphone-use-tied-to-changes-in-brain-activity/?src=me&ref=general

[FastJack]

This just in folks! It looks like we have some new evidence for the possibility of technomancers.....brainwave activity actually can sense Wifi:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/cellphone-use-tied-to-changes-in-brain-activity/?src=me&ref=general

Awww, yeah... Add in the Force Trainer and I'll be playing video games WITH MY MIND in less than a year.

[Fizzygoo]

brainwave activity actually can sense Wifi

After reading the article, I would suggest the phrase "brainwave activity is stimulated (or affected) by Wifi" rather than "can sense," until they demonstrate that subjects can determine which cell phone is active (lacking any other indications such as buzzing, ringing, blinking light, etc.) with high probability; only because "sense" imparts the idea that the brain is then informing the person('s consciousness) of the sensory input (which does not seem to be the case, at least from the news article, will be nice to get my hands on the research paper). But regardless, yes, brainwave activity is sensing the Wifi, and this is a very cool finding!

[Loki]

This just in folks! It looks like we have some new evidence for the possibility of technomancers.....brainwave activity actually can sense Wifi:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/cellphone-use-tied-to-changes-in-brain-activity/?src=me&ref=general

A more accurate hypothesis is brain activity can be effected by wifi transmittions. It's reacting to a stimuli sure, but sense seems a strong word.

[zhivik]

Anyways, I guess now we only have to wait until wireless networks become complicated enough to be self-aware, and voilà - we have our technomancers

On a more serious note, the study is indeed interesting, but it only shows that more research is needed in that area. Who knows what can turn out, though this does gives me some shivers, as it makes the apocalyptic future in the Dollhouse TV series ... possible.

[Rockopolis]

I'm reminded about the study where they used the magnet to temporarily shut down someone's sense of consequences...I'll get my tinfoil hat.

[inca1980]

Well, it really can SENSE intense UHF band frequencies ....just look for amplified glucose consumption in the brain as a proxy for finding a wireless signal.  I'm not saying it can interpret the information carried on those waves....just be "aware" of their presence.