[Crunch]

Or not learned. I suspect that adapting to the new grid is weeding out a lot of script kitties who lived on rote knowledge of systems and shiny programs. In this edition the deceker has to be on the ball instead of just hitting go.

[The Masked Ferret]

Well, it is good to have it confirmed that there are alternatives to Priority A Nuyen deckers.

[Crunch]

Well, it is good to have it confirmed that there are alternatives to Priority A Nuyen deckers.

There already was. I've been advocating low resource deckers for awhile as the cyberdeck only sets limits and a few peripheral things (damage codes etc) and programs are less vital. At priority C you can get a Chariot, and I'd back a Skill/Att A/B (in whatever order) decker with a Chariot over a lower skill/att decker with a Sony.

[MadBear]

I agree.
I have a combat Decker with Resources C who managed to also sneak in some Bone Lacing and an Obvious Cyber Arm with some enhancements. I would rather start with higher Attributes and Skills, as getting a better Cyberdeck will be easier than raising Attributes.

[Nero]

Hmmm. I may have to rethink my build. I'm looking for a decker who isn't completely useless in combat but I'm currently building with A) Resources B) Attributes C) Skills.

Do any of you promoting less decked-out deckers have a link or two to what your builds look like?

[The Masked Ferret]

I am currently running a A) Stats B) Skills C) Magic [Adept] D) Resources hacker specialized in Hardware. It has proven to be an interesting build. All of my adept stuff is going towards my hacking skills, and he uses the deck that I posted earlier in the thread. Waiting on an opportunity to actually play him in a mission and hopefully swipe a real deck. Well, a better one that is not an RCC.

[Nero]

Ok, but if you're running a 1146 riggerdeck you need to use edge anytime you want be able to use more than one net success. Aren't you going to be burning through edge pretty quickly on a Matrix heavy run? I mean Hacking on the Fly and cracking a couple files is gonna be 3 Edge if you are looking to keep more than one success.

It's not going to be as hard to get by with as hacking with a 0066 commlink where EVERY Attack or Sleaze action is going to need to use edge, but I still think you could burn through edge pretty quick.

[calaen]

Nero, the thing about a deck is that you can rearrange its attributes on the fly.

[Unahim]

A -deck- can, but an RCC? I don't believe it can.

[Nero]

Nero, the thing about a deck is that you can rearrange its attributes on the fly.

Right, but you can't with a commlink or an RCC, which is what TMF is using for his build. The RCC is 0046 and he runs two programs to give him +1 Attack and +1 Sleaze to make it a 1146 RCC, but an RCC can't swap it attributes on the fly like a cyberdeck can.

[ZeConster]

Nero, the thing about a deck is that you can rearrange its attributes on the fly.

Right, but you can't with a commlink or an RCC, which is what TMF is using for his build. The RCC is 0046 and he runs two programs to give him +1 Attack and +1 Sleaze to make it a 1146 RCC, but an RCC can't swap it attributes on the fly like a cyberdeck can.

That is entirely impossible: page 269 lists the cyberprograms that RCCs can run, and Sleaze- and Attack-increasing programs aren't on that list.

[Nero]

Nero, the thing about a deck is that you can rearrange its attributes on the fly.

Right, but you can't with a commlink or an RCC, which is what TMF is using for his build. The RCC is 0046 and he runs two programs to give him +1 Attack and +1 Sleaze to make it a 1146 RCC, but an RCC can't swap it attributes on the fly like a cyberdeck can.

That is entirely impossible: page 269 lists the cyberprograms that RCCs can run, and Sleaze- and Attack-increasing programs aren't on that list.

Well he calls out Decryption and Stealth, but as you mention the list on pg 269 doesn't include those. Of course the list also says it is a list of "handy ones" for a rigger, not the only ones. It also refers the reader to the Programs section for more information which could imply all programs are allowed.

RIGGER CYBERPROGRAMS
Riggers can utilize a number of cyberprograms that deckers usually use. Programs purchased for use on an RCC cannot be used in a cyberdeck and vice versa. As with decks, RCCs cannot run more than one type of program of the same type, even if you rename it. Here’s a list of handy programs for the savvy rigger and their basic function. See the Programs section of the Matrix chapter (p. 243) for more detail.
Encryption: +1 Firewall
Signal Scrub: Rating 2 noise reduction
Toolbox: + 1 Data Processing
Virtual Machine: 2 extra program slots; take 1 extra box of unresisted Matrix damage when attacked
Armor: +2 dice pool modifier to resist Matrix damage
Biofeedback Filter: +2 dice pool modifier to resist biofeedback damage
Guard: Reduce extra damage from marks by 1 DV per mark
Shell: +1 dice pool modifier against Matrix and biofeedback damage, cumulative with other programs
Sneak: +2 dice pool modifier to defend against Trace User actions
Wrapper: Allows you to defy Matrix iconography rules

So if that is a restrictive list of programs for an RCC, then whether you are using a commlink or an RCC, you would have to burn edge to have any chance of getting a success. If all programs are allowed on an RCC then you still can't swap stats and have to burn edge regularly, but its better than a commlink.

[Unahim]

It only says "Hey, here's a list of programs are useful on an RCC." It doesn't say "These are the only programs you may use!"

[Ricochet]

I've come around the last week on edge decking, and I kind of like the RCC and comlink solutions for cheaper alternatives for decks.  Getting a real deck is for the big timers.

My assessment:
1) Yes that one limit would really hurt, making edge very important.
2) When I suggested that, I wasn't even thinking of the possibility of a standard comlink having the ability to run sleaze or attack actions, since it doesn't have the software/hardware to do this.  My first opinion called it "ridiculous", but to be honest, I've come around on this, because I really think that allowing that solves the gap now, and adds to the game.  I'll be allowing that.

Note: By the way, I went to the big man himself yesterday to get his opinion on edge decking with a comlink.  He said the system definitely was not designed to allow it, but that is was kind of a cool if unintended idea.  That was good enough for me, and I'll be allowing it in our group when I take over GM duties next week.

[Nero]

I agree that it definitely adds to the storytelling ability to have a decker's gear evolve with his skills; starting with a commlink, evolving to a second hand RCC he comes across, into a low end deck and then on to bigger things. Being new to Shadowrun I'm just not as clear on how viable it is gameplay/mechanics wise. I'm used to RPGs with a lot of min/maxing so the idea of not starting with a high end deck seems like it could cause you and your team unnecessary issues.