[sylanna]

With the new movement system your house rule could make grenades pretty useless....there has to be another way. Grenades that don't explode in the turn they were shot are easy to avoid. Grenades that can explode in the same turn on the other hand are most likely a 100% hit...but this is a problem with the missing opposing test. There needs to be done a lot of proper explanations.

[Michael Chandra]

It'd still require them to run out of cover and make a decent bit of distance. Try combining grenades and suppressive fire, that'd be a nice approach. ^_^ They'd also not be able to return to any zone with grenades unless they hack them, because otherwise you could just trigger them with a Free Action the second they try to get past them. Can you imagine a hacking battle purely over trying to clear a corridor filled with grenades? Sounds awesome to me. ^_^

But yeah, it's not an optimal houserule, it's what I'd suggest as temporal fix until grenades are made deadly but not an auto-killer.

As it is now, I might be better off assassinating someone with a grenade launcher than with a sniper rifle. =P

[Xenon]

You are all talking about attacking with grenades, how much they can scatter if you don't get 3 success and how much damage it can stack up if you use multiple grenades (or confined space).


But... I have not seen much talk about defending against explosives
(described on p.190 and the table on p.189).

Code: [Select]

Defense modifiers table p.189

situation                           dice pool modifiers
================================    ===================
<<...cut...>>
Defender running                            +2
Defender/Target has Good Cover              +4
Defender/Target has Partial Cover           +2
Targeted by area-effect attack              –2


Targeted by an Area-Effect Attack p.190
Dodging explosions is not as easy as it seems in the
movies. Apply a –2 modifier when trying to defend
against weapons like spells, grenades, rockets, or missiles
with a blast or area effect.

From this written rule on how to defend against explosives it is very obvious that the defender do get to roll dice to doge an explosion... There is no indication that the defensive roll should be using anything else than a the normal Reaction + Intuition [+Willpower if Full Defense] Roll so this is what we have to assume is true for this roll as well.

1) Do rules contradict each other
2) Did we read something wrong
3) Are we missing some important rule


If 1)  - then we need clarification.
- Is the rule for explosions correct and the rule about dodge wrong
- or is the rule about dodge correct and the rule a bout explosives wrong.

If 2) - does the text as written on explosives leave a window open for a dodge test to be taken after all
- or is the text 100% stating that the opponent does not (never) get to roll a defensive roll to avoid the explosion?

If 3) - what could that rule be? Suggestions?




Just throwing this out, see where it lands:
Suppose that hits from the attack roll is used both for reducing scatter and as a threshold for the defense roll
(with a minimum required hits of 1 and with a defense modifiers of -2 because of the area-effect attack)

the other modifiers probably apply as well (i see no rule and no reason why not).
+2 for already being in partial cover make sense when avoiding the blast
+4 for already in good cover make sense when avoiding the blast
+2 for already running make sense when avoiding the blast

[SoulGambit]

Ooooh. Xenon. Good catch. That is much better than my being pedantic in an attempt to make the rules not suck. Go with this guy ^.

[sylanna]

That's really a good find, but imo there is still something missing. Getting enough hits to reach the threshhold of the grenade means what exactly? There are cases in which you can't explain it with reaching more or less perfect cover. Did I jump more than 10m away from the grenade? Did I jump net hits away from the grenade? I'd like to have more information on this. But that might just be me.

[Orci]

What about the problem that all grenade dmg is usually instantaneously doubled? As in the floor below you also reflects?

[Crunch]

What about the problem that all grenade dmg is usually instantaneously doubled? As in the floor below you also reflects?

If you find someone playing it that way slap them with the rulebook and tell them to calm down.

[CanRay]

What about the problem that all grenade dmg is usually instantaneously doubled? As in the floor below you also reflects?

If you find someone playing it that way slap them with the rulebook and tell them to calm down.

And put the vid of that on the Internet so we can all see it! 

[Orci]

RAW, it is written as playing it that way. it explicitly lists all 6 dimensions, including the floor (and ceiling)

[Psikerlord]

i think the -2 AoE defence mod is an error, put in the table prior to the grenades/AoE spells rules being finalised (similar to the incorrect Blast spell example).

[Thrass]

RAW, it is written as playing it that way. it explicitly lists all 6 dimensions, including the floor (and ceiling)

That's still only 3 dimensions (each dimension has 2 directions).

If you had a 6 dimensional grenade in Shadowrun... well that would need a hell lot'a rules.

[DWC]

Grenades do kind of do damage spread over time, since explosions and the scattering of a shrapnel cloud aren't instantaneous.  Beyond that, I'm kind of at a loss.

[Michael Chandra]

Since they tend to explode on the ground, I wouldn't let them bounce there. As for the roof, I wouldn't let it bounce against that either because otherwise explosions inside would be waaaay too dangerous. Maybe funneling rules would help, decreasing the blast loss per meter.

[Galrohir]

The example on page 183 (with the poor wee Devil Rat) agrees with Chandra in that explosions don't bounce off the surface the grenades are resting on, but they would totally bounce off an office cieling (assuming they're what, 2 1/2-3 m tall?). I mean if it's a 3m ceiling, a poor dude that gets a grenade on his feet would have to resist (assuming an HE 'nade): 16P+10 P (first bounce off of ceiling)+10 P(first bounce off of floor) + 4 P (second ceiling) + 4 P (second floor); for a total of 44 P; -2 AP.

At least going by the devil rat example

[Michael Chandra]

Huh? Why would it bounc off the floor at the same damage? Wouldn't it be more like 16P on the floor, goes up 3 and down 1 for 8P, then down 2 for 4P on the seocnd bounce, for a total of 28P?

Might be a good idea to submit a FAQ question on how grenades bounce off ceilings.