[sylanna]

I think he could, if I don't have DNI and he got the higher Initiative. A combatdecker might delay his actions, until something dangerous happens in combat...which would be seeing me pulling out a grenade launcher.

Let's assume that he got a higher initiative:

his pass: delay action
my pass: firing grenade (and it aims)
If I got DNI here, everything ends, because I detonate the grenade immediately.

If I don't:
his delayed pass: mark
his pass: brick (I just noticed that detonating it would be a very stupid idea, because the grenade already lies next to his mates)...it doesn't matter if he got DNI or not.

I am not quite sure, if he needs a matrix perception test to notice, that the thingy that just popped up is a grenade or if he can mark it instantaneously.  If he would need a test to confirm it, is it possible, that he marks it on a hunch? "Mh, suddenly a new icon in a combat situation. Might be a missile or grenade. Better mark it." Does the mark reveal the fact, that it is a grenade?
But this is only the case, when he is in VR. If he really sees me firing, there shouldn't be the need for a matrix perception test.

What do you think?

[Xenon]

A hacker can get a mark on your commlink. Delay action. You fire grenade. Hacker take his action. Spoof a mental command in your (the owner's) name to blow up the grenade once it is primed 5m away from your grenade launcher. This is a complex matrix action and it does not require a mark on the actual grenade.

DNI is a direct connection, and honestly unless your grenades are connected to you by a wire, I don't think you have a DNI to it.

Your DNI can have a wired or a wireless connection to your device. In SR5 it is almost always a wireless connection. Actually the only two wired examples they have in the rule book I could find was between the rigger control DNI and the rigger's RCC and between a street sam's smartlink DNI and her smartgun.

But DNI seems to be always better, because I can trigger the grenade with a free action. If I don't have it I will have to wait till my next action phase until I use a simple action for it.

So deckers without DNI will also need to wait?

So even if he already got a mark on my grenade and delayed his action, he can't trigger it as soon as it is 5m away from my launcher, because he has to wait. Meanwhile I detonate it with a simple action. Did I get that right?

DNI is faster. Not always better. Think of activating stuff with DNI as a mental command. You think it. It happens. If you want to trigger the wireless trigger without using DNI you are actually pressing a button or something similar (like the detonate grenade button on your grenade launcher). This take a bit more time, but it is still a simple action. You have two simple actions in one action phase.

- You can also use an air burst attachment on your grenade launcher. It will detonate the grenade for you once it get close to the target. That does not even take a free action and is probably the intended way of shooting wireless mini grenades with a semi-automatic grenade launcher.

Fire a grenade. Detonate grenade (either automatically with an airburst link, as a free action with the device linked to your DNI with a wireless link  or as a simple action by pressing the detonation button on your grenade launcher which send a wireless command to your grenade).

A decker will have a DNI. Either through a data jack (most common), internal cyberdeck (G-men use this a lot) or using trodes (in a helmet, for example - i made an [physical] adept decker a few weeks ago that used trodes instead of data jack). You also need a sim-module, but all cyberdecks come with one (they are even modified for hot-sim).

...any of my allies could blow up the grenade for me if they've got permission...

They can?

[Michael Chandra]

DNI is a direct connection, and honestly unless your grenades are connected to you by a wire, I don't think you have a DNI to it.

Your DNI can have a wired or a wireless connection to your device. In SR5 it is almost always a wireless connection. Actually the only two wired examples they have in the rule book I could find was between the rigger control DNI and the rigger's RCC and between a street sam's smartlink DNI and her smartgun.

Given how I was talking about how to make a grenade explode on command you need it to have its wireless on, I think you kinda were proving my point even though I didn't phrase myself right. ^_^ No exploding a grenade by command without wireless on.

[sylanna]

A hacker can get a mark on your commlink. Delay action. You fire grenade. Hacker take his action. Spoof a mental command in your (the owner's) name to blow up the grenade once it is primed 5m away from your grenade launcher. This is a complex matrix action and it does not require a mark on the actual grenade.

So he just marks my triggering device and blows me up as soon as I hit the button? That doesn't seem right. The grenade rules say, that you need a mark on the grenade in order to detonate it. Bricking the trodes seems to be an easier option to prevent being killed by a grenade.

...any of my allies could blow up the grenade for me if they've got permission...

They can?

They can. They just need it to be registered to their PAN.

[Xenon]

DNI is a direct connection, and honestly unless your grenades are connected to you by a wire, I don't think you have a DNI to it.

Your DNI can have a wired or a wireless connection to your device. In SR5 it is almost always a wireless connection. Actually the only two wired examples they have in the rule book I could find was between the rigger control DNI and the rigger's RCC and between a street sam's smartlink DNI and her smartgun.

Given how I was talking about how to make a grenade explode on command you need it to have its wireless on, I think you kinda were proving my point even though I didn't phrase myself right. ^_^ No exploding a grenade by command without wireless on.

Yes, grenades need wireless on or they can not be detonated wireless with DNI (or automatically with airburst link or as a simple action by pressing the detonate grenade button that send a wireless command to your grenade).

Interesting idea that grenades mechanically go wireless on after they flown 5m.
(I can't find any support for that though)
This mean, however, you can't slave the grenades to a commlink for better firewall.
Grenades will only have 2+2 dice when defending themselves.

With that few dice a Hacker could probably delay action and then spike a grenade to brick it mid air in one complex action.

[Michael Chandra]

Interesting idea that grenades mechanically go wireless on after they flown 5m.
(I can't find any support for that though)

They don't. However, they only get armed after 5m when fired with a launcher, unless you are dumb enough to override that with a hardware check.

[Xenon]

A hacker can get a mark on your commlink. Delay action. You fire grenade. Hacker take his action. Spoof a mental command in your (the owner's) name to blow up the grenade once it is primed 5m away from your grenade launcher. This is a complex matrix action and it does not require a mark on the actual grenade.

So he just marks my triggering device and blows me up as soon as I hit the button? That doesn't seem right. The grenade rules say, that you need a mark on the grenade in order to detonate it. Bricking the trodes seems to be an easier option to prevent being killed by a grenade.

Spoofing is basically "fooling the grenade into thinking it's owner send a command to detonate it" (you, the owner, have 4 marks on the grenade).
The grenade is mechanically protected from detonation until it flown 5m, but after that....

Yes - Bricking the wireless data jack (or trodes or internal commlink or whatever device he use for creating a DNI) of the owner is another way to prevent him from wireless detonate the grenade (in this case using his DNI as a free action). But if the grenade launcher have wireless ON the hacker should probably just brick the grenade launcher to prevent you from shooting any grenades at all (and if the grenade launcher have wireless ON then you can just use a simple action to manually detonate the grenade wireless even if your DNI is bricked).

hen again, if your grenade launcher is wireless ON then it would make even more sense to hack the grenade launcher 10 minutes ago, while it was still on your back and have the grenade launcher fire the grenades one by one..

[sylanna]

Oh okay. I didn't even think about spoofing command. Thank you.

hen again, if your grenade launcher is wireless ON then it would make even more sense to hack the grenade launcher 10 minutes ago, while it was still on your back and have the grenade launcher fire the grenades one by one..

I really hope, that weapons in shadowrun still fire mechanically...anything else would be so stupid in a world where you can hack everything...

[Michael Chandra]

Unless you take up electronic firing, the best they should be able to do is eject ammo right?

[Unahim]

Interesting idea that grenades mechanically go wireless on after they flown 5m.
(I can't find any support for that though)

They don't. However, they only get armed after 5m when fired with a launcher, unless you are dumb enough to override that with a hardware check.

A grenade being "primed" after 5m is very obscure wording. For a timed grenade, I guess the timer wouldn't start until it passes 5 meters. For a motion sensor, I guess it doesn't "motion sense" until ti passes 5 m. So for a wireless grenade... I guess it doesn't become wireless until it passes 5 meters.

[Xenon]

Unless you take up electronic firing, the best they should be able to do is eject ammo right?

Weapons that have a smartgun can actually be fired wireless.

But yes, A wireless firearm that is not a smartgun can not be fired wireless.
If you don't have a smartgun you only get:
-Wireless Ammo counter information
-Wireless Ammo type information
-Ejecting clip as a wireless action
-Change fire mode as a wireless action
-Wireless trigger for grenades and missiles

A grenade being "primed" after 5m is very obscure wording. For a timed grenade, I guess the timer would start until ti passes 5 meters. For a motion sensor, I guess it doesn't "motion sense" until ti passes 5 m. So for a wireless grenade... I guess it doesn't become wireless until it passes 5 meters.

As I said, an interesting idea. Not really supported by the books I think, but still an interesting concept.

40mm grenades with a safe distance exist today (real life) for impact triggered, time triggered as well as airburst triggered. The real life safe distance is closer to 25-30m than 5m. I am pretty sure that the actual grenade is basically just a dead paper weight (the explosive charge is not "armed") until it traveled the distance (or actually until it rotated enough). So even though you could "activate the trigger" it would still not detonate. If would basically be harmless to drop an impact grenade on the floor, but if the grenade start to roll down-hill it could potentially get armed and detonate the second it hit something solid...

Little practical difference if the timer start when you fire the grenade of if the timer start once it reach the safe arming distance - but for SR5 wireless grenades it actually make a pretty big difference as it would potentially make the time window where a hacker can gain a mark on the grenade very very small.

For wireless hand grenades I would take cover, ready grenade. wait until next action phase. manually set wireless ON. throw the grenade. detonate the grenade as a free action.

It is basically the same as having wireless triggered mini-grenades don't go wireless ON until they are mid-air. but even more evil since you can fire a semi-automatic burst of 3 grenades in the same complex action. where all three grenades don't go wireless ON until they are mid-air. No time for a hacker to spoof or brick them all. Not even if he use Fork software.



I think the SR5 intention is that they need to be wireless ON when you fire them, not that they auto trigger wireless ON mid-air. After all, targets don't get a defense roll and the DV even start at Dead++

[Michael Chandra]

Of course the fact the hacker has to be aware of it and hack it before it gets fired, or the team must be using a jammer, kinda means any team surprised and any (npc) team without decker+jammer gets wiped off the map.

[sylanna]

If the smartgun system is wirelessly enabled, yes. The security of not killing my friends or ejecting my clip in combat, is worth losing one die and the possibility to change fire modes or triggering grenades.

Can one jammer jam another one?

[Unahim]

Nope, since Jammers don't need to be wireless they're not affected by Noise for their primary functioning. An RCC is the only thing that can counter-jam, I think.

[ZeConster]

The Signal Scrub cyberprogram also works, although cyberdecks only get that one, while RCCs get Signal Scrub, the RCC's base Noise Reduction rating, and the ability to create more Noise Reduction on the fly. There's also the datajack implant.

Of course, since jammers can be set to ignore certain devices and persona through wireless, if the other side uses a jammer, you'll want to use one too anyway, just to even the playing field.