[ZeConster]

But if you cut Lifestyle costs in half, you only need half as much money to retire.

[Michael Chandra]

Permanent costs are now x500!

[SoulGambit]

The end goal of every Shadowrunner: 10,000,000 NuYen to retire in luxury.

Street Samurai are fine. They are nearly immortal in very short order. Every Street Samurai does, however, need to work with a very talented Face to sell back all of their gear at near-cost to above cost. Also to find all the rare gear. Without a good Face, the Street Samurai will find himself swimming in debt in very short order.

[lurkeroutthere]

Hi guys immediate thoughts.

I'm Chance's home game GM so on most issues he and I see eye to eye.

1) A year of observation to rebalance things: Sweet D's ghost please tell me you don't work in cancer research, that explains so much.

2) Ware being cheaper will cause a problem of balance vs mages. Ok i'm really really sorry if you had become accustomed to killing things with your mage eye lasers, that probably was a really hard pill to swallow between the overall damage reduction and finally getting some drain codes that mattered. But as prior nothing procludes a mage from picking up a gun and the utility spells are just as good as they've always been. Ditto spirit summoning. Mages were OP in 4th edition they got whacked with a nerf bat long coming in fifth. Even if we held that cyberware getting more expensive was to keep parity that totally leaves out actual direct nerfs to the cyber devices (aka the wireless "bonuses"), the social penalty for playing a cybered character. In short mages got nerfed along two axis, cybered characters who were already (IMHO) underperforming got nerfed along three.

3) Advancements: I guess it comes down to this, if you feel it's reasonable for a character to spend the outcome of 10-20 runs on an incrimental advancement we really don't have a lot of room to debate.

4) In setting logic: The RCC to control a vehicle costs an order of magnitude more then the vehicle itself. I don't know in whose head that fact was overridden by "everything has a price" but it must have been ins omeone. Ditto no matter how good the pay has supposedly gotten (to me it went up from piteous, to "acceptable" if you face one heavily cybered opponent your better off bagging his body up and parting out the ware then finishing the run in many cases from a monetary standpoint. We've replaced the "why don't shadowrunners just steal cars instead" with "why don't shadowrunners just steal cyberware instead' problem.

[ZeConster]

4) In setting logic: The RCC to control a vehicle costs an order of magnitude more then the vehicle itself. I don't know in whose head that fact was overridden by "everything has a price" but it must have been ins omeone.

You only need a single RCC, though, regardless of how many vehicles you have.

[SoulGambit]

@Lurkeroutthere: Okay? Its still change for the sake of change, which is almost always bad. Even in the best case scenario, this is a solution in desperate need of a problem. Houserules should be made to alter the feel/theme of a game or in response to in-game problems, not done willy nilly.

[Crunch]

1) A year of observation to rebalance things: Sweet D's ghost please tell me you don't work in cancer research, that explains so much.

That was actually sarcasm directed at another poster who had made the same demand in the Mystic Adept thread.

2) Ware being cheaper will cause a problem of balance vs mages. Ok i'm really really sorry if you had become accustomed to killing things with your mage eye lasers, that probably was a really hard pill to swallow between the overall damage reduction and finally getting some drain codes that mattered. But as prior nothing procludes a mage from picking up a gun and the utility spells are just as good as they've always been. Ditto spirit summoning. Mages were OP in 4th edition they got whacked with a nerf bat long coming in fifth. Even if we held that cyberware getting more expensive was to keep parity that totally leaves out actual direct nerfs to the cyber devices (aka the wireless "bonuses"), the social penalty for playing a cybered character. In short mages got nerfed along two axis, cybered characters who were already (IMHO) underperforming got nerfed along three.

Actually it will cause a balance problem against absolutely everyone who doesn't use ware as a primary power source. So you're nerfing Riggers, Adepts and everyone else.

3) Advancements: I guess it comes down to this, if you feel it's reasonable for a character to spend the outcome of 10-20 runs on an incrimental advancement we really don't have a lot of room to debate.

I think that there's a lot of room for advancement that doesn't focus on THESE SPECIFIC implants. Nothing is stopping you from buying something else.

4) In setting logic: The RCC to control a vehicle costs an order of magnitude more then the vehicle itself. I don't know in whose head that fact was overridden by "everything has a price" but it must have been ins omeone. Ditto no matter how good the pay has supposedly gotten (to me it went up from piteous, to "acceptable" if you face one heavily cybered opponent your better off bagging his body up and parting out the ware then finishing the run in many cases from a monetary standpoint. We've replaced the "why don't shadowrunners just steal cars instead" with "why don't shadowrunners just steal cyberware instead' problem.

A rating 6 RCC can actually control 18 vehicles.

[Emil_Barr]

I dont have anything to contribute to the rebalancing, but...

Looks like the nanopocalypse being used to at least partially explain the massive increase in ware prices

 http://www.shadowrun.com/2070/2013/08/09/going-macro-life-without-nanotech/

[lurkeroutthere]

@Lurkeroutthere: Okay? Its still change for the sake of change, which is almost always bad. Even in the best case scenario, this is a solution in desperate need of a problem. Houserules should be made to alter the feel/theme of a game or in response to in-game problems, not done willy nilly.

Que? Are we speaking the same language, I laid out exactly my reasons for wanting to change the costs. I honestly think that anyone that thinks ware prices are A-Ok should sit down and make a non-magic using character. Then for further fun try and make a character who'se primary focus is ware, that is to say a street sam. Make sure you make them exactly by the book and don't play the pregen( he's 200K over the limit) then tell me that ware prices, on top of the social penalty, on top of the changes incurred by the wireless 'bonuses" are not a problem.

[Crunch]

I've made them. They build differently than in 4E but can be just as effective as any other role in this edition. They tend to be a bit "softer" with more emphasis on the character rather than the ware, but they work just fine. 

[firebug]

I'm with Crunch on this one.  I remade a 4e character of mine as a starting 5e character; a half-half Face/Street Samurai.  She only ended up with five different augmentation (she is not a tanky build, but focused on dual-wielding pistols) but I am satisfied that she is potent as both a face and a combatant.  I actually ended up using B-Priority Resources because I ran out of Essence before I ran out of money, but was satisfied enough with what I had.  17 dice for Semi-Automatic Pistols, 14 dice for Con, Negotiation, and Etiquette (I put less skill points in the other social skills) along with decent initiative, good armor, Bone Density 4 (buying it used) and solid Unarmed DP.  Not to mention, even with the lowered Limit because of having less than 1 Essence, she still had a Social Limit of 8 from high Charisma and Tailored Pheromones.  I actually have room to grow in both skills and augmentations, but I'm also totally satisfied with what I want to be good at (specifically, shooting and talking).  And like I said, I did this with B in Resources.  You don't need a crapload of augmentations in 5th.

[Maddoux1]

I built a Rigger who has some magic but his focus is Drone Control, and I think I did just fine.  Sure, all I need is the SimRig, which cost me over half of my starting wealth, but I think I've got a great character.  Oh, for the record, we're Street Level, so I started with a Priority A in Nuyen.  I've got my car, and one drone (MCT FlySpy), my Ares Predator, and some armor.  Yeah, more drones would have been nice, but there's room to grow.

I can't believe that I'm about to say this (seeing as how I started playing in 4th Edition) but it sounds like you're trying to convert 4th Edition to 5th.  It works, but not well.  There were a lot of things that people disliked about 4th Edition, and 5th goes back to the way they were prior.  (And there was much rejoicing.)  Yeah, 'ware is expensive, as it should be.

I tend to like lower powered games (especially for distopias, I don't know why), but if you're group is running out of nuyen to build their characters and you want a higher level of character, play Prime Runners.  100,000 nuyen base (E) to 500,000 (A).  If you're still running out, turn 25 of your 25 karma into 50,000Y.

[Mäx]

I'm with Crunch on this one.  I remade a 4e character of mine as a starting 5e character; a half-half Face/Street Samura

Well i tried to do the same(pre build my combat face), but i ran out of money before i even got all of my corebook ware in, to say nothing about the ones i need the augmentation book for or guns and other essentials.
450k is peanuts with this editions prices.

I can't believe that I'm about to say this (seeing as how I started playing in 4th Edition) but it sounds like you're trying to convert 4th Edition to 5th.  It works, but not well.  There were a lot of things that people disliked about 4th Edition, and 5th goes back to the way they were prior.  (And there was much rejoicing.)  Yeah, 'ware is expensive, as it should be.

Maybe, but then street sams should start wiht a cool million like they used to.

And the "prime runners" level is a total slap in the face for streets sam players, mages can go recources E and still get 100k whereass sam going A gets a pathetic 500k.

[firebug]

I'm with Crunch on this one.  I remade a 4e character of mine as a starting 5e character; a half-half Face/Street Samura

Well i tried to do the same(pre build my combat face), but i ran out of money before i even got all of my corebook ware in, to say nothing about the ones i need the augmentation book for or guns and other essentials.
450k is peanuts with this editions prices.

Yeah, prices increased, I didn't say I bought every thing I had before.  I said I had enough to fill the exact same role.  What were you trying to prove with that statement?  That you can't do.math?

[Maddoux1]

And the "prime runners" level is a total slap in the face for streets sam players, mages can go recources E and still get 100k whereass sam going A gets a pathetic 500k.

Ah, now that is an argument that I could get behind.  Not because 5x the lowest rating for the highest rating is unreasonable (you should see the system that I wrote...), but that the difference between Prime Runner Resource A and Standard Resource A is only 50,000.

I'd support the Prime Runners getting more Nuyen.  But not prices going down.