[ZeConster]

Yes, but it would be half the cost instead of one quarter.

[All4BigGuns]

And? It's still cheaper because it doesn't do as much, but the Improved Physical Attribute becomes more of an option even for those most diehard of "optimizers".

[ZeConster]

And?

And you're saying Improved Attribute should become more accessible, but don't see any reason as to why this means perhaps Attribute Boost should get a boost so it doesn't become nigh-useless compared to Improved Attribute?

[All4BigGuns]

And?

And you're saying Improved Attribute should become more accessible, but don't see any reason as to why this means perhaps Attribute Boost should get a boost so it doesn't become nigh-useless compared to Improved Attribute?

It would still be cheaper, and that's the point of it. Maybe eliminate the Drain on it (which is silly for an Adept to have to deal with anyway).

[Unahim]

Attribute Boost is amazing in a Qi focus. Force 1 focus for 3k nuyen and 2 karma that can let me roll Magic + 1 dice (so probably 2 hits on average) to add to a stat for hits * 2 combat turns (4 combat turns is like an eternity), and I could have one of these for every physical stat I don't have max in, to be activated when I need it? Yes please. Put them into those tantric tattoos for extra awesome.

[ZeConster]

It only affects dice pools, though, so that's yes to skill tests and resist tests, no to higher limits an extra physical damage, initiative, and physical monitor boxes. Plus since you can only have as many as [Magic] foci bonded, and the maximum total Force is [Magic x 5], using a bunch of Force 1 Qi Foci is actually quite suboptimal.

[Crunch]

Right the best setup I've come up with for swapping out Qi Foci is a level 4 Danger Sense Qi Foci swapping for either Attribute Boost Agility 4 or a Weapon Focus or a couple of points of Combat Sense.

[Unahim]

It only affects dice pools, though, so that's yes to skill tests and resist tests, no to higher limits an extra physical damage, initiative, and physical monitor boxes. Plus since you can only have as many as [Magic] foci bonded, and the maximum total Force is [Magic x 5], using a bunch of Force 1 Qi Foci is actually quite suboptimal.

So? They can be replaced. They make amazing budget options at char gen for those tight on resources.

[ZeConster]

At chargen, yes, and if you only get one, but if you're going to get one for each attribute, it's better to get a single Force 4 Qi Focus with Improved Ability 2 or Improved Reflexes 1 (which is only Force 4 if you already have level 1 or 2), and use your regular Power Points for the small-cost powers..

[All4BigGuns]

It only affects dice pools, though, so that's yes to skill tests and resist tests, no to higher limits an extra physical damage, initiative, and physical monitor boxes.

That's why with the reduced cost I suggested for Improved Physical Attribute, the best set-up would be to take 2 ranks of that in Strength and Body and 4 ranks in Attribute Boost for Agility and Improved Reflexes 2. That way you could get the extra bonus to Agility based dice pools, but the Improved Physical Attribute powers are giving you that stuff for your limits, initiative and condition monitor. All without the mini-max types feeling they have to take implants.

[Mäx]

Second thought: I only bring up the Adept discussion because it so closely parallels this one. 'Phys Adepts are -because of the high cost of powers, especially when compared to sammies and their cheap ware'. 'Street Sams got hosed because of the high cost of ware'. I brought it up to point out what I see as hypocrisy.

Except that nobody has said that, only unarmed adepts are hosed(unless their trolls or high strength orks) and the problem isn't the cost of powers(except the improved attribute is over priced), it's the critical strike losing levels.
And nobody certainly didn't claim that the unarmed sams ware are cheap, but sure as heck their much more effective.

[Crunch]

There are only two problems with that 1) Unarmed Adepts work pretty darn well as long as they don't try to strength dump and 2) Samurai are as Max noted really effective in a number of fields and thus don't need to be buffed by dropping ware costs.

[MadBear]

Second thought: I only bring up the Adept discussion because it so closely parallels this one. 'Phys Adepts are -because of the high cost of powers, especially when compared to sammies and their cheap ware'. 'Street Sams got hosed because of the high cost of ware'. I brought it up to point out what I see as hypocrisy.

Except that nobody has said that, only unarmed adepts are hosed(unless their trolls or high strength orks) and the problem isn't the cost of powers(except the improved attribute is over priced), it's the critical strike losing levels.
And nobody certainly didn't claim that the unarmed sams ware are cheap, but sure as heck their much more effective.

Ah but they did! In the discussion on Physical Adepts, it was pointed out several times that the cost of Ware was less Karma wise for the same increases, when comparing unarmed PhysAds with Unarmed Street Sammies, and especially when comparing Essence to PP. And then I see on here people complaining about the cost of Ware. If you decrease the cost of Ware then the disparity between PhysAds and Sammies will only get worse. That's my problem with this discussion.
Also, if you decrease the cost of Ware, you end up with a bunch a cookie cutter cybered up combat monsters. I LIKE having a Sammie who is effective with 3 pt of Essence remaining, and don't want to have to use Priority A to compete with the other stat crunched Sams.

[All4BigGuns]

Ah but they did! In the discussion on Physical Adepts, it was pointed out several times that the cost of Ware was less Karma wise for the same increases, when comparing unarmed PhysAds with Unarmed Street Sammies, and especially when comparing Essence to PP. And then I see on here people complaining about the cost of Ware. If you decrease the cost of Ware then the disparity between PhysAds and Sammies will only get worse. That's my problem with this discussion.
Also, if you decrease the cost of Ware, you end up with a bunch a cookie cutter cybered up combat monsters. I LIKE having a Sammie who is effective with 3 pt of Essence remaining, and don't want to have to use Priority A to compete with the other stat crunched Sams.

It was said once about the implant and power costs, and then it was said by someone who always defended the 'Augmented Adept' in SR4, so they were used to that.

The conversation has kind of made something of a subtle shift over to resource increase rather than price decrease since the former would help every character type.

If you don't want to munchkin your Sam you don't have to. If you feel you have too, well, that's on you.

[MadBear]

Yes, resource increase would certainly be more balanced than reducing augmentation costs. Resources are a lot lower than previous editions, even when converting starting K to NuYen. I wonder why. Were the Devs looking to make the game more dystopian, more gritty and street?
House ruling higher starting resources would certainly be an easy way to affect the flavor of your game. We've both made the argument that what works for your game is great, go for it and have fun.