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Trolls aren't broken, but do seem racist: technical arguments

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Maddoux1

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« Reply #150 on: <08-12-13/2030:18> »
And that's why I see very little value in putting sexual situations in game.  I'm very comfortable with my sexuality, but I don't feel the need to provide my party with pornography.

Reaver

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« Reply #151 on: <08-12-13/2149:38> »
I dunno, its fun to throw things at your players that make them a little creeped out and doesn't harm them....


Like Elliot.

Elliot is a nice, well manicured and groomed Troll. With a bondage fetish. So much so, that he will only discuss "work" while "relaxing" in the dominatrix club... in full latex and leather attire.... minus butt coverings.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Lickintoad

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« Reply #152 on: <08-13-13/0652:20> »
My group's fixer contact lives under a bar in Seattle called the Glitter Man.  It's run by one of his old running buddies, and it's a gay bar.  One of the bouncers is Diddy, a hulking troll who also is gay, and has candy-striped horns.  He seems to like dwarves especially.

Yeah, we've got a pretty blasé attitude when it comes to "non-traditional" sexuality.  It's pretty commonplace in Shadowrun.  If you really want to make people uncomfortable, you throw that stuff in the D&D campaign.  No one expects that incredibly beautiful elf lass to be sporting extra equipment down there.

benedictmercury

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« Reply #153 on: <08-13-13/0914:36> »
I'd say the discomfort for us comes not at all from proximity to bizarre sexualities, only a little from being attracted to a chick with a mortar in her pants, and much more from watching ourselves squirm and fumble with our shifting postures towards the gender-bizarre.  As people become more self-conscious of how they tend to talk to women, men, x, y, etc., they get more flummoxed, embarrassed, stilted, overly 'cool with it,' and so on.

MadBear

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« Reply #154 on: <08-13-13/0921:05> »
Lickintoad, but DnD is classic High Fantasy, which is about escapism, while Cyberpunk is Science Fiction, and is about exploring the human condition.
It's interesting that more people step up and comment on exploring sexuality in SR than racism. Perhaps that's because it's the issue of the day, while racism seems to be thought of as a problem our parents faced? I love that we have such a medium for discussion. Though sadly, the people who most need to be disturbed in such a way are the least likely to tolerate such fluid/flexible NPCs.
I also find it interesting the OP's complaint was regarding statistical limitations, not fluff. For instance, the short life span of Orcs. From a story perspective, that's a major handicap. Orc fully mature before they are allowed to drive, to vote, or to drink. And they certainly reach old age or die long before they receive any sort of retirement. Is there Social Security in the 6th world? I might be reading too much into this, but that sounds munchkin. I want all the bonuses of a strong Troll, but I don't want any of the penalties.
BTW, if you are going to complain that a negative statistic is racist and does not belong, then you also need to remove the positive statistic bonuses, or it's just reverse racism. Double standard. Everybody has a max of 6 and starts a 1,  and then you end up with a bunch of differently shaped humans, some with horns and some with pointy ears.
I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living, it's a way of looking at life through the wrong end of a telescope. Which is what I do, and that enables you to laugh at life's realities.
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Crunch

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« Reply #155 on: <08-13-13/0924:53> »
It's interesting that more people step up and comment on exploring sexuality in SR than racism.

It may also be becasue the racism issues have been directly addressed by the game since first edition, so they're not exactly out there. Groups like Alamos 20k, Humanis and ORC as well as the whole orc underground plotline and a dozen others are direct explorations of racism using the fantasy world as a filter.

MadBear

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« Reply #156 on: <08-13-13/1008:49> »
It's interesting that more people step up and comment on exploring sexuality in SR than racism.

It may also be becasue the racism issues have been directly addressed by the game since first edition, so they're not exactly out there. Groups like Alamos 20k, Humanis and ORC as well as the whole orc underground plotline and a dozen others are direct explorations of racism using the fantasy world as a filter.

Which is kind of my point. We are used to having that discussion, while gender issues is relatively new in the public consciousness. And since racism has been part of the social discussion in SR since the beginning, complaining about racism in statistics seems pointless. It's there, it's part of the game.
I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living, it's a way of looking at life through the wrong end of a telescope. Which is what I do, and that enables you to laugh at life's realities.
-Dr Suess

benedictmercury

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« Reply #157 on: <08-13-13/1318:17> »
There aren't any new ways for me to distinguish the game's diegetic racism from its potentially funky resonance at the level of a designed object.  Thoroughly detailing racist organisations in-game (which in turn, I find, do racism in a straightforward, incomplete and unchallenging way, given how ambiguous race concerns would be with a mentally inferiour species) does not really address my question.  I think my question has gotten what it's going to get here, though, and I'm happy to leave it, but I'll probably keep defending it as a valid question if it gets dismissed or attacked with a hand wave.

There also aren't any other ways (or at least I don't intend to try to find them) to counter the assertion that bonuses without penalites is 'reverse racism,' an assertion many have made and none have actually attempted to defend or explain except Reaver.  I don't think lack of equivalence in every respect connotes racism; I leave that to the hysterical witchhunting types.  Equality in respect of physical makeup is relevant in the game world for combat and such, but I think it would not impact overall socioeconomic status a ton, just as it doesn't (or wouldn't, I'd aver) in the real world.  Equality in terms of cognitive function is quite another matter, at least if we're talking about advancement, earning potential, sophisticated self-governance, etc.  If there's a way around trolls and orks being hosed as a people because of inability to compete on a large scale with 'smarter' metahumans, I haven't heard it. 

Now, in-game, that's a perfectly fine and interesting thing to pose.  I've already stated that my discomfort with it comes more from the fact that metahumans erupt from humanity (and sure, if they're 'other species under thousands of years of genetic cover' or whatever this is circumvented somewhat, but I don't love that version--and I don't think it's absolute fact, given that magic is an incomprehensible x-factor at work), and this whole thing happens in a very near future, in a world that's ours+Gibson+some Tolkein.  Too close to home for me.  I think it's icky to have a species that so closely resembles slavers' description of slaves not that long ago.  That's all.  Not leveling a grand judgment.

The ork fluff thing doesn't raise the same alarm for me.  Dying early sucks.  Maybe it's genetic, maybe it's living conditions, maybe both and more.  It sucks.  I'm not weirded out by life sucking.  Maybe they'd be discriminated against for it, maybe not; you could certainly see some heartless companies thrilling at the prospect of employees that didn't have to be fired or released with pension because right when they start to decline they just *die.*  I don't think the game, or any art, owes it to anyone to be nice.  Brutality and unfairness are facts.  But being mentally inequivalent has always, always been the chief rationale of jingoism, of racist policy, of slavery, of the worst discrimination.  Building it in is rough for me to stomach.  I can't help but be nervous about a race of strength-monkeys with a lower IQ ceiling (and I still presume lower average) being around, typically, to supply the game muscle.  I don't judge the game for it, or its players for it, it just reads like a conspicuously tidy omission from the history record to me, and my eye keeps coming to it.

But maybe I'm seeing the implications of the mechanic wrong, which is why I started the thread.  Mechanically, it all makes sense, and stripped of ultimate consequence it's fine.  Just trying to follow through to the worldwide ramifications of it.

I also find it interesting that there's more perk in the sexual identity talk than in the racism talk, and I don't know if it's because we're jaded or we think it's mostly solved or what, but 'solved' is not what I'd call it.

It's cool if no one else thinks it's worth thinking about.  It's also cool if you keep talking about me in the 3rd person like I'm not in the room.  And everyone loves being called pointless.  Keep it up!

Reaver

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« Reply #158 on: <08-13-13/1443:21> »
Wait, you're IN the room?!?

<looks around at the other posters>

How many times do I have to tell you! After you stuff him in the closet, you turn off the light and lock the door!!!
:P

I dunno, I guess it isn't a big issue for me, because I look at the 'big picture' of it.

So human can go from 1 to 6 in mental stats.... That's fine. But that doesn't mean there are vast numbers of people running around out there with Einstien level intelligence... It just means that there COULD be. The vast majority of people will be in the 2 to 4 range. Just like now. And intelligence isn't really the only factor that leads to success either. Personality, social standing, ethics, morals, economic strata all play a factor as well. I am sure there are some REALLY intelligent people living in the slums of India.... And they will die there too.

Same thing for trolls. Most trolls will be in the 2-4 range for mental stats, which is on par for where the majority of humans are. But neurologically, that 4 is the upper limit of a trolls raw brain power... Which makes them still pretty darn smart.

Lastly, no matter what the mental stats, there is no limitations on skills that any race can take which would be a more racist policy then a limitation on an attribute. (sorry, you're a troll, you can take B/R skills cause trolls are dumb!)

Attributes (especially mental ones) are barely defined... All we can say is that the higher the number, the better, but that doesn't mean smarter.... A human with 6 in mental skills and a 0 in math would be stumped by calculus equations since he is defaulting.... But a troll with 2 mental attributed and 10 in math does calculus free hand! So which is really smarter??

Which leads into the next question: how do you define "intelligence"? IQ tests? Those have been shown to be racially biased. Skills knowledge? Wouldn't the moron with 15 different jobs over 10 years have more skills then the quantium physics professor who has only taught for the last 10 years?

In short, it's just a number! Don't get hung up on it! It is a game based, made up number used in the mechanics of the game to limit a subset of dice pools for balance against another bonus to an other subset of  dice pools.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

benedictmercury

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« Reply #159 on: <08-13-13/1514:55> »
Yeah, I think you're right, in the end. Not a real deal. Right after my last thing I suddenly was like...'actually, I'm cool.'

Good talk, cats. Game on. Next thread: degree of tech advancement. I've been thinking about the wildly advanced tech in SR vs. the minimal stuff in Elysium--or rather, the ways each world have pushed some things way forward and others back. Developing my thoughts.

quindraco

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« Reply #160 on: <08-13-13/1531:33> »
Yeah, I think you're right, in the end. Not a real deal. Right after my last thing I suddenly was like...'actually, I'm cool.'

Good talk, cats. Game on. Next thread: degree of tech advancement. I've been thinking about the wildly advanced tech in SR vs. the minimal stuff in Elysium--or rather, the ways each world have pushed some things way forward and others back. Developing my thoughts.

Elysium is far, far from minimal.  It was unquestionably Shadowrun-esque in many places - I immediately thought of the game when I saw hacking-on-the-fly happening mid-combat.  However, the level of technology in Elysium is so far developed beyond anything in the Shadowrun world that I'd be hesitant to draw too many comparisons.

benedictmercury

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« Reply #161 on: <08-13-13/1548:50> »
Not uniformly beyond, is it?  Primitive exoskeletons.  Very little medicine or body mod available on the cheap.  Hacking somewhat less sophisticated (or maybe just conveniently broad); imagine something even today being able to turn a city's communications off (which I read as a simplicity of networks, not an ultra-high-tech regulation system). 

But then, the healing beds were like magic in their degree of hypertech.  Dunno.  I saw it as different fields of crazy advanced, others of fairly cumbersome low-grade.

Black

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« Reply #162 on: <08-13-13/1854:57> »
I play a 2050 campaign and racisms is a big theme in the game. 

We have overarching plot lines with Hands of Five, Metroplex Guard and others working towards an independent Seattle by blaming terrorist attacks on metahumans sponsored by radical elements in the orc underground / casacade orc tribe (which is currently, in my story, being run by a toxic shark shaman).  We have constant tension in the team with their ongoing conflict with Humanis radicals (though they just rescued 60+ members from a secret prison... um.. its complicated),

Then there was their brief trip to Denver and interacting with the 'Unity' policlub and the shadowspirit who was running them.  Involved a plot to blame chinese residents for a nuclear terrorist attack...

Then within the team our human japanese ex-corper whose homeland is mostly orc/troll free and thus feels, vocally, more than a bit uncomfortable when the team bunks down in the tacoma orc underground.  And the orc adept constantly misunderstands every comment the human wujen makes... as a deleberate slur against orcs.

Strangly, the elves get a fair go, but then they are usually running the team.

And the NPCs often refer back to racist terms like tusker, trog, dandelion-eater, breeder etc.

Its a dystopia and racism is very real part of the setting.  The heroes get to try and make a difference, whether its taking free jobs to provide medical supplies to the orc underground, or by taking the battle to the racists themselves (Hands of Five, the Metroplex Guard...).
Perception molds reality
Change perception and reality will follow
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benedictmercury

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« Reply #163 on: <08-13-13/1907:02> »
I like tha your guys are not just protagonists, but maybe also heroes sometimes. Our guys, by design, are struggling mightily with whether their sense of purpose extends beyond self-interest. Every time they pretend it doesn't, they erode further inside.  It gets gnarly.

IKerensky

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« Reply #164 on: <08-14-13/0654:35> »
Quote from: benedictmercury link=topic=12112.msg226153#msg226153 date

and sure, if they're 'other species under thousands of years of genetic cover' or whatever this is circumvented somewhat, but I don't love that version--and I don't think it's absolute fact, given that magic is an incomprehensible x-factor at work), and this whole thing happens in a very near future, in a world that's ours+Gibson+some Tolkein.  Too close to home for me.  I think it's icky to have a species that so closely resembles slavers' description of slaves not that long ago.  That's all.  Not leveling a grand judgment.


Ok you dont like it and think the game designer are racists because of that.
That is too bad because, even If you dont like it, it is exactly what is in the game. And IT IS AN ABSOLUTE FACT!
Your griveance only exist because you invented it by changing the way the game is.

You said it is racist because Orks are humans, we corrected you and point it how they are an entirely different species, and how it always was this way in the game world. They you said : ok, but I dont like it, so I dont accept it, do I change it so the Orks really are humans and this game really is racist.

YOU Sir, really have a problem that no web forum would ever cure. I am out of this discussion right now because your answer always will be : "I dont like your facts, so your facts are wrong and I am right". That is just pathetic.

 

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