[Crunch]

But there's not a test to use a gun, unless I'm shooting someone.

There is not a test to use my muscles, unless I'm using my muscles to punch someone.

Shooting the gun is the test to use the gun. Cyberware stat augmentations on the other hand aid a whole number of tests, but are only an augmentation to those roles. The character without a gun cannot shoot, the character without muscle replacement can still punch someone.

You could make an argument that diagnostics would aid a cyberlimb in punching- since the cyberlimb has it's own strength stat rather than using the characters.

[SoulGambit]

I think I am, at the very least, beginning to see your logic. You feel that Diagnostics only works on an action that absolutely requires the item to take place at all. No item, no roll.

That would imply that a Machine Sprite can never ever help with building stuff. You can technically build stuff without the proper tools, the tools just modify your roll. If anything you'd need to Machine Sprite the materials under that logic... which is O_o.

In fact, Machine Sprites don't help with any action that is enhanced by tools. Stealth with a Camoflage Suit. They can't help Medkits. Et Cetera Et Cetera. More importantly, they also can't ever help a Technomancer's Living Persona, meaning the Technomancer can't ever get a Hacking dicepool worth a damn when compared to... any other option. Technomancers suddenly become the worst and what they are meant to be the best at.

That's... entirely too restrictive and, thankfully, conjecture based on your definition of "use" and whether you think contributing to / modifying the dicepool is enough to qualify. I'm not saying your viewpoint, assuming it is the above, is invalid. But its ridiculously restrictive. I think Diagnostics under that design may help with driving a car, shooting a gun, repairing stuff, and using a Deck... and... that's it? Woo~

The thing is, that logic leads to other silliness. Lets say I'm opening a door. I use a crowbar to pry it open, I'm using the crowbar. Sure, it only "helps out," but I'm using the crowbar so its helpful. Conversely, the crowbar is not helpful if its not being used. Under your logic, diagnostics on the crowbar wouldn't help because I'm not "using" it.

If I am using a fully robotic medkit to help treat someone, having a Machine Sprite run diagnostics does absolutely squat. Sure I'm "using the medkit" if I ask any lay person, but its only augmenting my rolls. Its assisting, et cetera.

I can't use Diagnostics to help make a Trid. Sure I'm using my console, but I can be creative without it so its only augmenting my roll.

While some items are used to make actions possible, other items are used to make actions easier. You use a stove instead of a stone slab because its faster. You use a calculator instead of doing math in your head because its easier. You use your augmented muscles instead of your flesh ones because it is easier.

God only in Shadowrun can we have these discussions over the word "use." -_-;

[Crunch]

Nope, because repairing an item is explicitly covered under diagnostics.

[SoulGambit]

What? I think you misread my post?

[Crunch]

For building and repairing (which at this point are covered by the same rules) the machine sprite is using diagnostics on the item being built or repaired, not the tools.

Making trids isn't covered by the rules, but if you take using the camera to record the scene as a discreet action (which it is, take it from an old lighting tech "makin a trid" is a bunch of little actions not one big one) using the camera could be assisted by the diagnostics.

[SoulGambit]

Oh. I see. Building =/= repairing. They are different things. If a Machine Sprite can help with building, it is not because it says it can help with repairing.

[Crunch]

Oh. I see. Building =/= repairing. They are different things. If a Machine Sprite can help with building, it is not because it says it can help with repairing.

As there are no separate Building rules in SR 5 as yet, and all Building and Repairing rules use the same modifiers that statement is simply not true in SR5. For SR5 purposes "Build and Repair" is a single concept and anything that applies to one applies to both.

[SoulGambit]

"and," "or," and "/" are all used to link two different things. Just because the rules for doing two different things are the same doesn't mean they are the same thing. For example, the Leadership Skill has several options under it. A bonus to "Rally" does not also give one a bonus to "Direct." They are two things that use the same skill in the same way for different results.  Most Influence Skills use the same rules with the same modifiers for different results. A bonus to one does not give you a bonus to all the others. Engineering Skills and Hardware are different skills that can be used in different ways to achieve different results. A bonus to one of these (repair) does not also imply a bonus to all other ways to use a skill (i.e. build).

Actually, if you look very closely, Building and Repairing don't have some unified system. They have a unified set of modifiers, and that's it. Building from scratch also requires a knowledge skill. And the so-called "rules" basically say "use the common extended action rules in the front of the book."

[Crunch]

Oh. I see. Building =/= repairing. They are different things. If a Machine Sprite can help with building, it is not because it says it can help with repairing.

As there are no separate Building rules in SR 5 as yet, and all Building and Repairing rules use the same modifiers that statement is simply not true in SR5. For SR5 purposes "Build and Repair" is a single concept and anything that applies to one applies to both.

[DigitalZombie]

Ok, lets see if I got this. I went through the book from the start of the gear list to the end.
1) No items can get the bonus if they arent wireless enabled\or in some other way cabable of coming in contact with the sprite
2) no melee weapons gets the bonus, except monofilament whip? (depends on if the whips is purely passive or if it can move on its own)
3) projectile weapons gets the bonus, if they are smartlinked
4) all firearms gets the bonus, smartlink is not necessary, as long as its wireless enabled if they are smartguns
5) missiles gets the bonus on their sensor test
6) chameleon suit and thermal damping gets the bonus
7) commlinks, cyberdecks, bugscanners, all levels of tools kit\shop\facility gets it (links and decks are personas when in use)
8 ) vision enhancements, audio enhancements, spatial recognizer and other sensors with a dicepool gets it
9)security devices but not restraints (page 447)
10) B and E gear, except crowbar (duh),miniwelder and  monosaw
11)survival gear only gasmask\hazmat gives a bonus on analyze rolls, respirator and gecko gloves gets the bonus
12) medkit,antidote patch gets it
13)All augmentation that can be purchased as non cyberware gets the bonus, commlink, cyberdeck, olfactory booster, taste booster, datalock, ultra sound sensor, voice modulator, cyberguns
14) all vehicles and drones
15) the diagnostic bonus on repairing can be used on all items cabable of wireless transmission, even if they arent electronic devices themselves, like katanas and pants

[firebug]

I'm a bit naturally against Machine Sprites being so easy to utilize simply because I don't think a TM should have (or give to his allies) a bonus to just about everything all the time.  They shouldn't need it to be better at hacking, either.  When Data Trails is released, if it has alternate Streams like from SR4, it's likely some of them won't have access to Machine Sprites; that hopefully will not automatically make them automatically fall behind at everything they do.  One sprite shouldn't be so core to a TM's capabilities.

I wouldn't restrict it quite as much, but the wording does need some clarification.  Any ability that can be so clearly (to those who argue their side) either restricted to the four things SoulGambit mentioned or extended to "Anything linked to an augmented attribute, anything involving my arm, any matrix action, and anything else that even brushes shoulders with a device" is in need of some clarifying errata.  I don't think Machine Sprites were meant to be the catch-all-end-all buff ability.

[Michael Chandra]

Chameleon Suit and Thermal Dampening do not let you run a test on their effectiveness, right? Don't they just reduce the dice of the opponent's Perception test?

Firearms need a smartlink to be wireless don't they?

I'd list a few more but honestly I think Diagnostics is too wide and abuse-possible.

[firebug]

Firearms do need a smartlink, but when built into the gun internally (or externally) they together count as a wireless device, as they mention that bricking someone's smartlink apparently makes it so the gun stops working entirely (apparently the trigger is changed to be entirely superfluous, since you don't actually need it for a smartlink anyways).

A chameleon suit gives a bonus to your tests when the wireless is active, so it'd likely be a valid target for Diagnostics.  I agree with you though.  I don't need a hard list, I'd just like them to give me something other than "use", because as silly as it is, use is one of the vaguest terms.

[SoulGambit]

There are, in fact, separate building rules, Crunch. One requires a knowledge skill, one does not. In the case of building things, the exact details of the test involves are set by the GM. In the case of repairing, the details of time are left to the GM while, IIRC, its based on the number of damaged health boxes. Those are two seperate, distinct things. The only things they have in common are modifiers and that the GM sets how long the intervals are. Given that this is not a game emphasizing building stuff, I suspect it to remain at about that level of abstractions.

@DigitalZombie. How I think the rules work, Crunch obviously disagrees with me. I'll try and present both sides where applicable. Crunch, please correct me if I mispeak for you.
1) The Sprite has to be able to reach them somehow. I'd probably allow DNI, dunno what Crunch would say.
2) I'd let Melee Weapons weapons in, personally, but that's more to keep things fair than it is because it makes sense.
3) Yup.
4) Yup.
5) Yup
6) I say yes, I believe Crunch says no.
7) I say yes. Crunch (again, correct me if I'm wrong) would say: Yes, yes, no, maybe.
8 ) I say they would get them. Crunch says no.
9) Define "Security Devices"
10) Yup
11) I'd let it on any roll they modify. Crunch would agree with you here.

@Firebug: Oh, I agree with you. This issue is that the Machine sprite feels cheesy even if, at the end of the day the TM needs it just to compare. The fault lands squarely on the writers of the book. We should not have to have a discussion about what "use" means. At the end of the day? The Machine Sprite helps the Technomancer keep up and just replaces the leadership skill. Nothing stops the Face from getting on a commlink and doing all of this stuff. If the Face is also a Spirit Summoner, then its actually probably near the top of what s/he should be doing--after summoning stuff.

[Crunch]

1) No items can get the bonus if they arent wireless enabled
It's not a wireless bonus but the sprite has to get in there somehow. As TMs don't currently have access to DNI outside of wireless or Trodes Wireless would seem simplest, but if a TM had trodes attached or a datajack Link I don't have a problem.

2) no melee weapons gets the bonus, except monofilament whip? (depends on if the whips is purely passive or if it can move on its own)

There's a fair amount of room for interpretation here, certainly you could make an argument for Shock Gloves or a Stun Baton. Essentially the weapon would have to be sophisticated enough to count as a device.

3) projectile weapons gets the bonus, including knives (maybe not knifes, I mean how much can a digital friend help ou there)

It depends and there's room for interpretation. I can't think of a projectile sophisticated enough to give the bonus to, but that doesn't mean there couldn't be one.

4) all firearms gets the bonus, smartlink is not necessary, as long as its wireless enabled

Again it doesn't need to be wireless necessarily, but it has to be connected to the matrix in some way. Whether all guns get the bonus depends on how much electronics your GM thinks a non smartguin in the 2070s has. As a rule of thumb I'd say any gun that could be hacked could get the bonus.

5) missiles gets the bonus on their sensor test

Any active sensor should be able to benefit yes.
 
6) chameleon suit and thermal damping gets the bonus

I'd say no, as neither the Chameleon Suit or the Thermal Damping is being used to make a test that the teamwork test could directly benefit from.

7) commlinks, cyberdecks, bugscanners, all levels of tools gets it

Yeah, anything electronic and active should benefit. How MUCH it helps a Cyberdeck and in what way is something I'd have to look at. As for tools I'd again say that the sprite is using the power on the thing being fixed or built rather than the tool itself.

8 ) vision enhancements, audio enhancements, spatial recognizer and other sensors

Not ones that simply give bonuses. If the sensor rolls itself, or allows a roll that would not be possible without it then yes.

9)security devices but not restraints

Depends on the security device and the restraint.

10) B and E gear, except crowbar (duh),miniwelder and  monosaw

I'd have to look at it on a case by case basis. I actually think the saw would be a good candidate for the bonus.

11)survival gear, gasmask\hazmat gives a bonus on analyze rolls, respirator and gecko gloves gets the bonus

Again on a case by case basis. I'd say no on gecko gloves which are simply adding a bonus to climbing anyway.

12) medkit,antidote patch gets it

The Patches should for sure get it.

13)All augmentation that can be purchase as non cyberware gets the bonus, commlink, cyberdeck, olfactory booster, taste booster, datalock, ultra sound sensor, voice modulator, cyberguns

I don't think so. If the cyberware would only provide a bonus rather than a test then no.

14) all vehicles and drones

Yep.