[firebug]

At least an Elf Shaman with Leadership would still be taking up their turn to do it to one person at a time, while the Machine Sprite doing it means the TM is free to do what they like.  Even a normal Face who isn't giving up anything like a turn of spellcasting would still likely be giving up a shot with a pistol, which they could have decent skill in instead of buying the Leadership skill.  Though we don't need to discuss when and at what degrees it would be better to assist than to just shoot...

My point is just that the fact that it takes next to nothing (no money to register, easy to summon, the sprite itself wouldn't do much else, no one is giving up potential combat-based actions) away from the TM to have a Machine Sprite use Diagnostics all the time really adds to the "Is this cheese?" feeling.

[Unahim]

I really don't see why this is going on so long. If someone can't see that "using" your muscles isn't the same application of using as "using" your computer, and it definitely being the second form that Diagnostics works on, then I just don't know anymore.

[DigitalZombie]

ok, Ive updated my post about which items I think would get the bonus.
I will just try to explain some of those choices, specifically chameleon suit. The suits mechanics are exactly the same as smartlink. Smartlinked weapons raises the accuracy limit by 2 and when wireless is enabled gives a +2dice bonus on the skill test. Chameleon suit raises the physical limit by 2 and when wireless is enabled gives a +2dice bonus on the skill test. (I guess they went away from the perception penalty from 4ed because the players would get suspicious GM\ ok, guys roll a perception test with a minus 4 penalty \players\ oh, a minus 4 like the chameleon suit that the assassin from yesterday used? \GM\... shut up!)
All weapons are cabable of wireless, it isnt necesary for them to be smart guns, BUT I guess the sprite cant help unless the weapon has dedicated targeting software, like smartguns, because right now, giving a bonus on ejecting magz and changing fire modes is kinda moot.

Im sorry Crunch, but I still dont get your reasoning. Are you saying if I used cyber eyes with vision enhancement (a dicepool bonus), I wouldnt get the bonus, but if I used cybereyes with thermographic (no dicepool bonus) I would get a diagnostic bonus on perception rolls?
Because all a smartgun does is raising the limit and providing a dicepool bonus, just like vision enhancement. (ok, it also gives other bonusses, but no dicepool test are involved in those)

I would personally go the the opposite road, and say\ those items with a die bonus, can get the enhanced by the diagnostic bonus.
(I guess Crunch and Unahims reasoning is, if they already give a dicepool bonus, they are already "contributing to the teamwork test" and cant get another teamwork bonus on that.)

[Crunch]

I'm really not sure how to make it any clearer. Basically for diagnostics to apply there has to be variability (a roll) involved in the functioning of the device. There is variability in shooting a gun (you roll to hit) there is no variability to Muscle Replacement 2 (It always provides a +2 Bonus to Strength and Agility). Diagnostics can make the gun function better, but the Muscle Replacement is always assumed to function perfectly so there's nothing for the diagnostic to do.

[DigitalZombie]

I get that part I dont have muscle augmentation listed as a device cabable of getting the bonus, under my 14 points of items list.
But wouldyou stillsay that the chameleon suit doent benefit, while the smartgun does?(see my previous post, they essentially gives the same benifits, just on different skills and limits) or is not because the gun is a smartgun but because its sophisticated enough to be a device, smartgun or not?

[Crunch]

The smartgun link doesn't get the bonus, the gun does.

[DigitalZombie]

Ok, now I know what you mean phew that took some time.

(although I think I will houserule it my way) But I atleast understand your reasoning now, and I might use it sometime in the future instead of my "houserule\interpretation"

[Unahim]

I'm really not sure how to make it any clearer. Basically for diagnostics to apply there has to be variability (a roll) involved in the functioning of the device. There is variability in shooting a gun (you roll to hit) there is no variability to Muscle Replacement 2 (It always provides a +2 Bonus to Strength and Agility). Diagnostics can make the gun function better, but the Muscle Replacement is always assumed to function perfectly so there's nothing for the diagnostic to do.

Best way to put it in the entire thread. Bravo to your, sir, bravo!

[SoulGambit]

Rolling to hit has absolutely squat to do with how well your gun functions. If it had anything to do with how it functioned, then different guns would gain bonuses on to-hit based on their quality. Your ability to aim-at-stuff, as represented by the dicepool being your skill and your attribute is what the diceroll is measuring. Other than your ability to aim, your gun is assumed to be functioning perfectly (except in the case of a Glitch or Critical Glitch). There is no roll to make your gun jam less or fire faster or fire straighter. Its all assumed. This is why you can pick up a revolver and it is exactly as reliable as a machine pistol and as accurate at a sniper rifle, peripherals aside.

I'd also like to point out that your method causes a metric ton of confusion.

My method is, "Is the device impacting the roll or allowing the roll? If yes, go for it. If no, then no." I don't think anyone has misunderstood that yet. Some have disagreed, yes, but no one has misunderstood. Whatever happened to Occam's Razor?

[Crunch]

"Does the proper functioning of the item require a roll" is just as simple.

[SoulGambit]

But the answer to that question is always no. Always. Items are assumed to be functioning properly except in the case of a glitch or critical glitch and... I think that one sniper rifle that breaks down. Moreover, you don't get a roll to use an item better.

Here's another fun one: Guns themselves aren't Electronic Devices. "The Diagnostics power allows the sprite to evaluate the inner workings of an electronic device. The sprite can assist someone using or repairing the device with a Teamwork Test." Guns are made with Armory, not Hardware, meaning if you can't run Diagnostics on the smartlink you can't get the bonuses at all.

[Crunch]

But the answer to that question is always no. Always. Items are assumed to be functioning properly except in the case of a glitch or critical glitch and... I think that one sniper rifle that breaks down. Moreover, you don't get a roll to use an item better.

Here's another fun one: Guns themselves aren't Electronic Devices. "The Diagnostics power allows the sprite to evaluate the inner workings of an electronic device. The sprite can assist someone using or repairing the device with a Teamwork Test." Guns are made with Armory, not Hardware, meaning if you can't run Diagnostics on the smartlink you can't get the bonuses at all.

And there's the point at which diagonostics wiggles in. And you're wrong in SR most firearms have electronic functions by default. Which skill you use to make them isn't relevant. Missles, for instance, are also made with armory, Cars are repaired with Automotive Mechanics. The B/R skill used has no impact.

[SoulGambit]

If I'm the GM, and my player is using a stealth suit to go all stealth, I can have the Stealth Suit break on a glitch or critical glitch just as easily as I can have their gun jam. If that's where diagnostics wiggles in, I'm correct.

I'm not 100% sure on the skill thing. I kind want to say that "Could you use Hardware / Software in any part or version of this?" is a good guideline, sand equipping wireless. For instance, the Pilot Program in the car could be Hardware or Software, as could the Rigger Interface or the AR controls. Coincidently, this would mean that Diagnostics does not help with full manual control. I'm okay with that. Missiles are armory, but the sensors (sold separately) they are equipped with are built with Hardware, so they're okay. Smartlinks are okay. Muscle Augmentations are not, because they are firmly in the Cybersurgery category. Same with reaction enhancers and wired reflexes and most of the other truly broken stuff. Could Diagnostic the 'soft used in Skillwires directly, but not the wires themselves. I'd give a pass on a built in smartlink, sensors, etc since they are fundamentally an Electronic Device (per the normal version), just inside your eyes.

Like, I'm not really willing to fight that point, but it does just so happen to nix most of the broken unintended side-effects from my measure.

[Novocrane]

If [rolling to hit] had anything to do with how [your gun] functioned, then different guns would gain bonuses on to-hit based on their quality.

Improvised ranged weapons have an Accuracy of 3, and broken, old, damaged, or otherwise flawed ranged weapons can have their Accuracy reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1. This includes items that have been damaged through Matrix Combat.

It seems they do.

[Xenon]

diagnostics on a a regular firearm (not a smartgun) with wireless ON give you +1 accuracy
diagnostics on a smartgun with wireless ON give you +1 accuracy and +dice to hit

diagnostics on wired reflexes will aid you when you turn them on or off, but that normally don't require a roll anyway...