[ImaginalDisc]

I am sorry if these are obvious questions, but PANs, commlinks, and decks seem to be able to interact in such a way that a cheap commlink can protect a cyberdeck with its excellent firewall rating, allowing a decker to set his ASDF attributes with firewall as a dump stat. I have several questions.

Meet Bob. Bob is a Decker who loves to Attack and Sleaze his way though problems, but hates leaving himself vulnerable with low firewall ratings when he boots his deck. Bob reads the PAN rules on page 233 carefully and notes than a good commlink can be the Master device, and his deck can be the slave device. When his deck is attacked, it will be the firewall of the Master which is used for defense.

Bob decides to buy a Transys Avalon, with a device rating of 6. This means he can slave (Device rating x3) devices to his comm, and he can cover 18 of his own and his runner team's favorite electronic toys. He decides to slave his deck to his comm. His choice of deck is a Novatech Navigator, device rating 3, ASDF:6 5 4 3"

Question 1: If someone attacks his deck through his comm, is the deck really protected by the firewall rating of his comm, which is the device rating of the comm (6)?

Now Bob wants to do some illegal activity. He decides to go into Hot-Sim VR. He boots his persona with his Deck in Attack 6, Sleaze 5, Data 4, and Firewall 3. The deck remains slaved to the comm.

Question 2: Can Bob use the data attribute of the comm (6) even though his persona is running on the Navigator which is currently set with a Data attribute of 4?

Eventually, Bob's persona is attacked. Bob's persona is still running on the Navigator, which is still slaved to his comm.

Question 3: When he resists this Matrix damage, does he use the Firewall of the comm, or the deck?

Question 4: Assuming he takes some Matrix damage, is the damage applied to the deck his persona is running on, or the master comm?

[firebug]

I think I can give some answers.  Aaron stated somewhere, possibly the FAQ thread, that a 'deck is no longer a device when it is in use--  It's a persona.  This makes sense because your deck and "you" cannot be targeted separately in cybercombat.  This means that once you used the deck for anything (accessing it means using the persona, as you have one regardless of whether it's AR or VR) it ceases to be slaved to anything.  It can still be the master of a PAN, however, because it doesn't lose the ability to slave devices (it just stops being one).

So to answer 1) and 3):  No.  Your deck uses its own stats.

To answer 2): Nowhere does it say that you suddenly gain all of the Master's matrix attributes.  Otherwise, you'd be able to slave you smartgun to your deck and just hack through your smartgun.  Things slaved to a commlink or deck need use their own attributes for actions other than matrix defense rolls.

4): Your persona (the deck) is being attacked.  Your commlink doesn't take damage if someone uses Data Spike on a slaved device; the only drawback to being a master device is that when a slaved device is marked, the master is marked.  There's no sharing of damage. 

[ImaginalDisc]

Thanks, firebug.

I mostly figured that was the case, except for this:

"Things slaved to a commlink or deck need use their own attributes for actions other than matrix defense rolls."

[Xenon]

Question 1: If someone attacks his deck through his comm, is the deck really protected by the firewall rating of his comm, which is the device rating of the comm (6)?

You don't really attack "through" his comm in this edition. The attacker would attack the cyberdeck directly. The cyberdeck can take advantage of the firewall from the commlink it is slaved to. Attackers that gain a mark on the cyberdeck also gain a mark on the commlink.

(the cyberdeck icon can only be targeted if you are not using it as your cyberdeck icon will vanish and be replaced with your persona icon, so in this question i assumed the cyberdeck was just like any other random slaved device to a master device).

Now Bob wants to do some illegal activity. He decides to go into Hot-Sim VR. He boots his persona with his Deck in Attack 6, Sleaze 5, Data 4, and Firewall 3. The deck remains slaved to the comm.

Now you are using your cyberdeck with your persona and not as a stand alone slaved device. There might or might not be difference here. You can only slave devices to other devices or hosts. Since your persona is not slaved to the comm, i am not 100% sure your persona will use the comm firewall or the firewall attribute of your cyberdeck.

So the real question is if your persona get the comm firewall rating for the purpose of defense or the cyberdeck firewall rating for the purpose of defense (i think your persona icon would have the cyberdeck firewall rating, not the commlink firewall rating - even for the purpose of defense against matrix attacks. the persona is not slaved to the commlink).

Question 2: Can Bob use the data attribute of the comm (6) even though his persona is running on the Navigator which is currently set with a Data attribute of 4?

No. His persona is not running on the commlink. His persona attributes are equal to his cyberdeck. Slaved devices can never use the master device data attribute for anything. They can only use the firewall rating and only for defense when under attack.

Question 3: When he resists this Matrix damage, does he use the Firewall of the comm, or the deck?

You never use the master device firewall attribute for resisting matrix damage - only for defense tests to avoid attacks. He use the firewall attribute of his persona which is the same the current firewall attribute that his cyberdeck is configured for.

Question 4: Assuming he takes some Matrix damage, is the damage applied to the deck his persona is running on, or the master comm?

The damage is applied to his cyberdeck. Attacking a slaved device will never cause damage to the master device.

[ImaginalDisc]

Thanks for the input! Matrix rules are always complicated. If you'll help me a little further, I want to make sure I run them properly.

I think the takeaway is that if you are running a persona, you *must* use the matrix attributes of the device running that persona, even if it slaved to another device.

Therefore, in no cases will you use the attributes of a master device for an active persona, but you may use the firewall of the master if the device is not running a persona.

Correct?


That leads me to two scenarios as a double check. Number 1, a scenario with no slaved cyberdeck: 

Bob finds himself in a seedy part of town, in one of its standard issue dark alleys. He has an Ares Predator V for protection, and he feels secure. His Ares Predator V is slaved to his commlink, which has a device rating of 6.  A rival decker, Carl, sees Bob, percieves the icon for his pistol, and tries to ruin his day. If Carl makes an attack action on Bob's heater, Bob's pistol is protected by the device rating of the master comm.

That seems to be the intended use of PANs and I want to be sure I got that right.


Number 2, a scenario with a slaved cyberdeck:

Bob is feeding the birds in the park and listening to music on his cyberdeck, while it is slaved to his comm. He is not running a persona, he's just using several hundred thousand nuyen worth of hardware as a glorified music player. A script kiddy, let's call her Alice, spots him and decides to ruin his day. Alice notices the Matrix icon for Bob's commlink and deck.  Alice attempts to place a mark on Bob's deck. She must use the firewall rating of the slave or master, whichever is higher. She succeeed and places the mark on the slave deck, which also places the mark on the master comm.

Bob notices Alice's actions, boots his persona, and goes into Cold-Sim to teach Alica a lesson she won't forget. Now that he has booted a persona in his deck, he must use all the Matrix attributes of his deck, even if the attrbutes of the master comm are higher.

It's clear that PANs were not intended to protect cyberdecks from attack through a PAN when running an active persona. Did I apply the RAW correctly in this scenario?

[Xenon]

Correct?

That might or might not be correct

I like to think this is correct, but the book is not really clear on this matter. Your persona might be able to use the firewall of the commlink when defending against matrix attacks (but not when resisting matrix damage). I don't think so and from the reply from firebug neither does Aaron...

That seems to be the intended use of PANs and I want to be sure I got that right.

Yes
(but if you don't have a smartlink to go along with the internal smartgun of the predator V then there is little or no point in leaving the firearm wireless ON).

It's clear that PANs were not intended to protect cyberdecks from attack through a PAN when running an active persona. Did I apply the RAW correctly in this scenario?

If Bob is jacked out of the Matrix (not even using the cyberdeck for augmented reality) or if Bob is using augmented reality from the commlink, then yes.

But it would probably be smarter to put the cyberdeck firewall attribute to 6 and enter augmented reality on the cyberdeck while listening to music. If Alice's hack on the fly failed then Bob would get a free mark on Alice's persona which not only would lit her up like a Christmas tree (Bob would automatically "know" where Alice persona is even if she go silent running or even successfully use the hide matrix action) it would also give him DV+2 (or even DV+3 if he got the right software) if he decide to spike Alice.

[ImaginalDisc]

I was just referencing this thread and wanted to thank Xenon and firbug for their help!

You chummers get gold stars!

[FasterN8]

Slaved devices can never use the master device data attribute for anything. They can only use the firewall rating and only for defense when under attack.

The book doesn't actually make this (only Firewall) restriction.  It says that slaved devices use the master's attributes for defense tests.  The FAQ addressed this in a post by Aaron (around Oct 15) who stated that defense tests are anything after the v. in an opposed test.

This actually makes sense since without a slaved device being able to benefit from all a cyberdecks attributes, a Decker running silent would be trivial to locate with Matrix Perception and Trace Icon since his slaved devices would not be protected by the Decks superior Sleaze rating.

[Xenon]

Yes you use master rating for data of data is used in a defense test. But what defense test use data as an attribute in the first place? (No book atm)

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I've got a couple questions to add:

1. Can you slave PAN masters to PAN masters?

I'm assuming that PANs don't really stack fully.  As in, Bob's rating 6 commlink can only be a master of 18 devices that are in turn not masters of additional devices.

I'm assuming you can somewhat stack PANs, like Bob's commlink can be the master even when Bobette brings her PAN into his network, so long as all of Bobette's devices still stays under Bob's limit of 18.. and furthermore Bobette's PAN master quits being considered a master (aka, it's not a 2nd tier master) while in Bob's PAN.


2.  Can something besides a RCC, Cyberdeck, or Commlink be a PAN master?

For example, if you end up with rating 4 cybereyes, and that firewall is better than your 100 =Y= commlink's, can you make your cybereyes your PAN master?

[DeathStrobe]

I've got a couple questions to add:

1. Can you slave PAN masters to PAN masters?

I'm assuming that PANs don't really stack fully.  As in, Bob's rating 6 commlink can only be a master of 18 devices that are in turn not masters of additional devices.

I'm assuming you can somewhat stack PANs, like Bob's commlink can be the master even when Bobette brings her PAN into his network, so long as all of Bobette's devices still stays under Bob's limit of 18.. and furthermore Bobette's PAN master quits being considered a master (aka, it's not a 2nd tier master) while in Bob's PAN.


2.  Can something besides a RCC, Cyberdeck, or Commlink be a PAN master?

For example, if you end up with rating 4 cybereyes, and that firewall is better than your 100 =Y= commlink's, can you make your cybereyes your PAN master?

1. Depends on interpretation. At the very least you cannot daisy chain the stats. You can't have a deck with 9 firewall, and slave a rating 4 commlink to that, and have a rating 1 commlink slaved to that and expect to have everything at the deck's firewall. Commlink 4 will have the firewall of the deck, but the rating 1 comm will have the firewall of the rating 4 commlink.

2. Yes...but there is some security issues with that. A mark on a slave marks the master. If they both have really crappy firewall, it might be better to just keep them both separate.

[Xenon]

Unless your device have a wireless bonus or function then I don't see why you want to have it wireless ON in the first place.

[FasterN8]

Yes you use master rating for data of data is used in a defense test. But what defense test use data as an attribute in the first place? (No book atm)

There are a few Matrix actions with Sleaze as part of the defense test, and only one with Data Processing as part of the defense test.  That would be Hide, so apparently a high rating commlink is pretty great at not losing track of hidden icons you've spotted.

No Matrix actions use Attack as part of the defense test, although there's some neat houserules by SoulGambit that use attack as a kind of "Block" interrupt action for Matrix combat. (1st page of Houserules thread)

[Orpho]

And on the topic of PANs, and another question that may be answered already but that I'm still confused on - can a technomancer protect his fellow runners' devices? If so, how?

I know that, per SR5 pg 251, a living persona is not a device, so it cannot be a slave or a master, nor can it be part of a PAN or a WAN. Do they need to use a commlink to protect their fellow runners' gear? And is their commlink device rating then their firewall, rather than their willpower as a living persona? I assume the advantage to their protection, if I've got it all right, would be that it's their willpower being used in the firewall + willpower score, rather than the street sam's.

[DeathStrobe]

And on the topic of PANs, and another question that may be answered already but that I'm still confused on - can a technomancer protect his fellow runners' devices? If so, how?

I know that, per SR5 pg 251, a living persona is not a device, so it cannot be a slave or a master, nor can it be part of a PAN or a WAN. Do they need to use a commlink to protect their fellow runners' gear? And is their commlink device rating then their firewall, rather than their willpower as a living persona? I assume the advantage to their protection, if I've got it all right, would be that it's their willpower being used in the firewall + willpower score, rather than the street sam's.

Yes, they need to use a commlink. Yes, they use the commlink's stats and not the living persona. Yes, they use the master's attributes (at least I'm pretty sure) for defense tests. Its also almost mandatory for mancers to take infusion firewall to boost their commlink's firewall to ungodly levels, to be on par with some corporate hosts. Its a nice balancing act since a TM can't protect their team's gear with sleaze, so the crazy high firewall is a nice trade off.