[Xenon]

Before I respond to that, please clarify what your actual point is regarding grenades. Your tangents and opinions are distracting and making it unclear what you think the rules say and what you think they should say.

That if detonating a wireless grenade is not a wireless bonus (in some cases it is) then you can detonate it wireless even if it is snowing.

Xenon; Umm, you can get the wireless bonus if the smartgun is connected to the data jack as well?

You can't get a wireless bonus if you turn your smartgun wireless OFF and use a cable between your smartgun and your data jack. If you have wireless ON it will be connected to your data jack (but it will by definition also be connected to the rest of the Matrix)

Show me where it is stated that each device HAS to connect to the matrix on it's own, I dare you

It is getting tiresome to feed you page references Martin

p.421 "Wireless Bonuses" 
When an item has additional functionality when connected to the Matrix, it’s described under the “Wireless” entry in the item’s description...This functionality only applies when the device has access to the Matrix...These benefits only apply when the item’s wireless mode is on.

[Xenon]

...0 noise from distance, at the very least...

The device lose it's additional wireless functionality if there is a Noise Rating from other sources than distance that is greater than the item’s Device Rating. Noise due to distance does not matter when talking about additional wireless functionality.

It does not matter if your smartgun can get access to Matrix through your commlink or not since if you have a cable to your commlink then your smartgun is not wireless ON and you don't get a wireless bonus anyway.

If your smartgun is wireless ON then it will be connected to your commlink, your data jack, the hostile deckers cyberdeck, the Matrix etc etc but if there is enough noise (in this case between your smartgun and your data jack) then you will still not get the wireless bonus...

[martinchaen]

To further illustrate my point about noise, let's look at possible modifiers:

Distance:
Directly connected (any distance) 0
Up to 100 meters 0
101-1,000 meters (1 km) 1
1,001-10,000 meters (10 km) 3
10,001-100,000 meters (100 km) 5
Greater than 100 km 8

Situations:
Dense foliage: 1 per 5 meters
Faraday cage: no signal, action blocked
Fresh water: 1 per 10 cm
Jamming: 1 per hit on Jam Signals actions
Metal-laced earth or wall: 1 per 5 meters
Salt water: 1 per centimeter
Spam zone or static zone: Rating
Wireless negation (e.g., wallpaper or paint): Rating

Of all of these, the only two I could see affecting two devices on my person would be saltwater (if device a and device b are more than 3 cm apart, noise = 3), and fresh water (if device a and device b are more than 30 cm apart, noise = 3). In other cases, both situational modifiers and distance modifiers would not affect two objects on a single person, and thus would allow a low DR device to connect to the Matrix through a device with DR => Noise.

Now, if noise is sufficient to drown out even a DR6 commlink, you're obviously hosed...

[martinchaen]

The device lose it's additional wireless functionality if there is a Noise Rating from other sources than distance that is greater than the item’s Device Rating.
It does not matter if your smartgun can get access to Matrix through your commlink or not since if you have a cable to your commlink then your smartgun is not wireless ON and you don't get a wireless bonus anyway.

And this is where you misunderstand me (first of all) and we fundamentally disagree (second of all); I said nothing about wires in this case, and I obviously think that the device can still connect to another device that is connected to the Matrix.

How else would you explain what "The Matrix" is? There is no single "Device in the sky" that you need to connect your smartgun to; by virtue of how The Matrix functions, EVERY device is THE Matrix. As long as my device can connect to at least ONE other device that has matrix connectivity, that device is connected to The Matrix.

If your smartgun is wireless ON then it will be connected to your commlink, your data jack, the hostile deckers cyberdeck, the Matrix etc etc

YES! Exactly! As long as my smartgun is wireless ON it WILL connect to my commlink, and if a Noise 3 situation occurs it would have to specifically apply to the device (i.e. more than 3cm away from another device with matrix connectivity while submerged in saltwater).

[Xenon]

Why would you never be affected by:
"Jamming 1 per hit on Jam Signals actions"


And you kinda forgot:

City downtown 1
Abandoned building 1
Sprawl downtown 2
Abandoned neighborhood 2
Barrens 2
Major event 3
Advertising blitz 3
Rural area 3
Abandoned underground area 3
Heavy rain 3
Snow 3
Commercial area in a city 4
Wilderness 4
Severe storm 4
Commercial area in a sprawl 5
Remote place with satellite access only 5
Massive gathering 6
During widespread emergency 6
Remote, enclosed place (cave, desert ruin) 6

[Xenon]

YES! Exactly! As long as my smartgun is wireless ON it WILL connect to my commlink, and if a Noise 3 situation occurs it would have to specifically apply to the device (i.e. more than 3cm away from another device with matrix connectivity while submerged in saltwater).

3cm away from another device within matrix connectivity while submerged in saltwater is one.
Outside while snowing is another
Being out in the wilderness is a third
Being in the area of effect of a jammer is a fourth.....

We just listed a lot of noise sources. Take your pick mate.

[Michael Chandra]

Martin: But then you're no longer talking about RAW, but houserules. And as much sense as those may make, they aren't the rules. So if you want to debate houserules and houserules alone, that's fine by me, but until you explicitly state so I will assume you are actually talking about what the rules say. And under the rules, not only must the device connect by itself, your own network still suffers from spam or static and an environmental noise of 3 will kill your wireless smartgun.

Before I respond to that, please clarify what your actual point is regarding grenades. Your tangents and opinions are distracting and making it unclear what you think the rules say and what you think they should say.

That if detonating a wireless grenade is not a wireless bonus (in some cases it is) then you can detonate it wireless even if it is snowing.

So to be exact, you are saying that you can have a DNI to a wireless grenade that is not damaged by Noise, correct? And that wireless functionality cannot be jammed unless it is explicitly stated as their wireless bonus?

[martinchaen]

Jamming is another, good call.

Spam and static zones are others, but they apply equally to everyone and all devices, so are not relevant to the discussion at hand (which is, to my mind anyway, about noise affecting one device but not another).

The jammer you listed, which is how this topic started, is a perfect example.

A R3 jammer is enough to overcome the smartgun, but not a R6 commlink; if you have communication between the commlink and the smartgun then the smartgun should still be able to access the Matrix through the commlink, as per the whole mesh topology idea. Particularly as "The Matrix" is the abstract of every device out there, and not just a single device.

Since you brought it up, though, I think it's odd that a sattelite link would not give you Matrix access in a wilderness/rural area; I've used satlinks  in Afghanistan (which is plenty fucking wild and/or rural), and they work just fine...


Michael; except that it is not stated in RAW that a device has to connect to "The Matrix" by itself. The way the matrix is designed is exactly as I've described several times, which is as RAW, and that is that every device is the matrix. So my smartgun doesn't need to connect to some obscure device, it just needs to connect to the closest device that does have access to the matrix.

The rules state:
"Because nearly every piece of gear and ’ware is wireless capable, it means nearly every piece of gear and cyberware benefits dramatically from being “meshed” into your wireless personal area network and the Matrix as a whole." (page 421)
So, each device in my PAN can speak to each other, and through each other, to the rest of the Matrix. Agreed?

"When an item has additional functionality when connected to the Matrix, it’s described under the “Wireless” entry in the item’s description. This functionality only applies when the device has access to the Matrix, which is most of the time unless your gamemaster says otherwise, like if you’ve entered a wireless static zone." (page 421)
When the device has access to the Matrix. It does not specify HOW this access is obtained, merely that it needs to have it. However, the previous statement specifically describes the device being "meshed" with your PAN as being connected to the Matrix.

And yes, a wireless static zone could possibly negate such connections. This is where I think universal access cables come in, though. More on that below.

"If there is a Noise Rating from a situation that is greater than the item’s Device Rating, not including distance, the item temporarily loses its wireless functionality (see Noise, p. 230)." (page 421)
Again, Noise has to exceed Device Rating specifically; static zones would do it, as would some of the other situational noise ratings (like saltwater), but not all of them.

"These benefits only apply when the item’s wireless mode is on." (page 421)
Nowhere is it stated that a device cannot be wireless on AND have a universal access cable attached...

Now, going back to sattelite links, I just noticed that the Spam and Static zones mention these;
"Commercial area in a sprawl/Remote place with satellite access only: Noise Rating 5" (page 231)
That has got to imply that a sattelite link would negate this type of noise rating, surely? Is the wording of sattelite link just poorly worded?

Also, on wired connections (page 232):
"Devices have a universal data connector, which is the global standard for connecting devices together for power and data exchange. If you have a cable, you can connect to the device directly."

"When you use a direct connection, you ignore all noise modifiers and modifiers due to being on different grids or the public grid. It’s just you and the device."
This is important, I feel, because it doesn't state that the device somehow is disconnected from the rest of the Matrix when you jack in with a UDC, it just states that for the purposes of communicating between you (your device) and it (the other device) there is no noise and you ignore grid modifiers.

How does that preclude an item from obtaining a Wireless bonus by "being connected to the matrix" through a UDC to a device that is not affected by the Noise Rating? It doesn't, at least not by RAW.

[Michael Chandra]

Michael; except that it is not stated in RAW that a device has to connect to "The Matrix" by itself.

Yes it is. The item must have its wireless mode on. If it is in a Noise Rating above its Device Rating (barring distance), the item temporarily loses its wireless functionality. Which means no wireless mode, so no wireless bonus.

Look, I understand you don't like it. But arguing that the rules do not state what they actually explicitly say, gets us nowhere. Arguing from fluff and descriptions while ignoring the repeatedly-quoted page solves nothing, all it means is we all get more frustrated.

[Xenon]

So to be exact, you are saying that you can have a DNI to a wireless grenade that is not damaged by Noise, correct?

Can you clarify what you mean by bold above?

And that wireless functionality cannot be jammed unless it is explicitly stated as their wireless bonus?

Jammer have a fluff text that say it block wireless and radio communication (and that is what you normally use them for in real life so I agree that it make perfect sense and might even also be RAI that you can use them to shut down wireless devices) but as far as rules and RAW go I can only see that jammer increase noise and noise make stuff slower and act as a negative dice pool modifier (except for defense or resistance tests).

Noise can also, in addition to the negative dice pool modifier, also prevent wireless bonus (if it is greater than the device rating).

[martinchaen]

Michael, see my edit. I quoted all the relevant sections of the rules. I'm adding page numbers now.

[Michael Chandra]

@Martin: Page 421 is explicit. Too much Noise -> no wireless functionality -> no wireless mode on -> no wireless bonus. All you have done is provided fluff that helps argue a case that you SHOULD be able to use a wire with a commlink and thus have decent grounds for a houserule. However, page 421 is all the RAW relevant here. So no, the rules are clear here. All that is debatable is whether it is fair, not whether it is RAW.

@Xenon: So to summarize our disagreement:

- You say only wireless bonuses are blocked by Noise, not other wireless functions. So exploding a wireless grenade through DNI is still possible since the wireless bonus only is detonating it without DNI.
- I say the loss of wireless functionality means ALL wireless functions are out, including but not limited to wireless bonuses. As such, Noise will block grenades/commlinks/drones/smartguns if there's enough of it.

Correct?

[JackVII]

@Xenon: So to summarize our disagreement:

- You say only wireless bonuses are blocked by Noise, not other wireless functions. So exploding a wireless grenade through DNI is still possible since the wireless bonus only is detonating it without DNI.
- I say the loss of wireless functionality means ALL wireless functions are out, including but not limited to wireless bonuses. As such, Noise will block grenades/commlinks/drones/smartguns if there's enough of it.

Correct?

Just to hop in on this one... not to speak for Xenon, but the viewpoint that is expressed above as his is how Aaron has described it. Usual caveats apply.

[martinchaen]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, then, Michael, because I don't think there is anything explicit about "This functionality only applies when the device has access to the Matrix", and this is not clearly defined. "Most of the time unless your GM says so" is pretty much the clearest definition I can tell, because the Noise rules are ambiguous as all get-out, referencing situations which can apply to some but not all devices in the situation...

What's really needed to clear this up from my perspective is an answer to the following question:

"Can a device that is slaved to a PAN use the Device Rating of it's master to determine Noise modifiers and whether or not Wireless functionality is temporarily lost?"

[Xenon]

Spam and static zones are others, but they apply equally to everyone and all devices, so are not relevant to the discussion at hand

They are very relevant.
If there is more noise than your smartgun can handle then you don't get wireless bonus
It does not matter if you have a high rating commlink.

A R3 jammer is enough to overcome the smartgun, but not a R6 commlink;

If there is more noise than your smartgun can handle then you don't get wireless bonus
It does not matter if you have a high rating commlink.

Since you brought it up, though, I think it's odd that a sattelite link would not give you Matrix access in a wilderness/rural area; I've used satlinks  in Afghanistan (which is plenty fucking wild and/or rural), and they work just fine...

Using a satellite link give you a flat 5 noise no matter how far away you are (distance) or how remote (static zone).

You can make your phone call, just you don't get the wireless bonus if noise is greater than your device rating...

Michael; except that it is not stated in RAW that a device has to ...

To get wireless bonus your device need to be wireless on. It must be connected to the matrix. It must not suffer more noise than it's device rating.

And yes, a wireless static zone would negate such connections. This is where I think universal access cables come in, though.

To get wireless bonus your device need to be wireless on. It must be connected to the matrix. It must not suffer more noise than it's device rating.

That has got to imply that a sattelite link would negate this type of noise rating, surely? Is the wording of sattelite link just poorly worded?

That mean you get a flat 5 noise rating if you hack through a satellite link no matter how far  away you are (other side of the world) or how remote you are (middle of the desert).

- You say only wireless bonuses are blocked by Noise, not other wireless functions. So exploding a wireless grenade through DNI is still possible since the wireless bonus only is detonating it without DNI.
- I say the loss of wireless functionality means ALL wireless functions are out, including but not limited to wireless bonuses. As such, Noise will block grenades/commlinks/drones/smartguns if there's enough of it.

Yes
According to RAW i can't find anything about noise blocking communication, it only seem to add a negative dice pool modifier (and it prevent additional wireless functionality listed under wireless bonus).

(I personally agree with you that enough ECM should have the potential to block communication. I just can't find any rules for it)