[FastJack]

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[Reaver]

dang it Jack, that hammer of yours has been busy this past week!!

this is like the 3rd thread where I have seen you scripted " I am watching and waiting to hit you with me BANHAMMER!!!"


(nice to know you care though)

[DWC]

It's worth noting that the "cash" characters have a lot more uses for Karma in 5E than they did previously. Taking a single level 6 skill to 12 would cost 114 Karma. A Samurai probably has 4 or 5 key skills, a Decker at least 3, a rigger at least 3. So unless your games are going VERY long (500-600 Karma worth) there's a lot more karmically related up for the core competencies of your mundane characters than in 1-4 .

But that 114 karma expenditure to raise a skill from 6 to 12 will also require 114 weeks of training time, and any augmentation surgery performed will stop the training process.  Take more than 3 weeks off during a training step and you lose the time for that step.  Who's really going to be able to take 22 weeks to raise a combat skill from 10 to 11?  Meanwhile, raising your Resonance from 10 to 11 takes 11 weeks, and Submerging from grade 4 to grade 5 takes no time at all.

The cash driven characters won't have as much time to get any real use out of their surplus of karma because the team won't want to sit around for five months while they train a skill.  Meanwhile, the mage isn't taking anywhere near as long to spend his karma and needs more of it so he's driven to go out and keep working while the samurai is out running his sidearm with his offhand, in the dark, after spending an hour on the treadmill to get his heart rate up and his palms sweaty.

[Shadowjack]

It's worth noting that the "cash" characters have a lot more uses for Karma in 5E than they did previously. Taking a single level 6 skill to 12 would cost 114 Karma. A Samurai probably has 4 or 5 key skills, a Decker at least 3, a rigger at least 3. So unless your games are going VERY long (500-600 Karma worth) there's a lot more karmically related up for the core competencies of your mundane characters than in 1-4 .

But that 114 karma expenditure to raise a skill from 6 to 12 will also require 114 weeks of training time, and any augmentation surgery performed will stop the training process.  Take more than 3 weeks off during a training step and you lose the time for that step.  Who's really going to be able to take 22 weeks to raise a combat skill from 10 to 11?  Meanwhile, raising your Resonance from 10 to 11 takes 11 weeks, and Submerging from grade 4 to grade 5 takes no time at all.

The cash driven characters won't have as much time to get any real use out of their surplus of karma because the team won't want to sit around for five months while they train a skill.  Meanwhile, the mage isn't taking anywhere near as long to spend his karma and needs more of it so he's driven to go out and keep working while the samurai is out running his sidearm with his offhand, in the dark, after spending an hour on the treadmill to get his heart rate up and his palms sweaty.

Are you actually playing by those rules? Frankly, they sound very boring and I won't be using them.

[Godwyn]

For the training rules, I kinda figure anyone with a skill higher than 6, which is the standard professional rating, spends time with that skill regularly anyways.  I also figure any run where you use that skill is at least as valuable as training, so should qualify.  The section even says runs interrupt the training, not make you restart it.  So there never has to be months of waiting around, the characters continue to go on runs, and in their downtime between runs, they train.  For a very fast paced campaign I can see a problem, but I see a usual pacing of a run every 2-3 weeks, which puts karma earning at about the same rate you can train things anyways.  At 6 karma for a run (about average), it takes 4 runs to get the karma to improve a skill from 10-11 anyways.  At 2.5 weeks per run, that's 10 weeks.  For an average logic character, they can improve 2 skills at once, needing 20 weeks to get enough karma...and 20 weeks to train.  Also, since karma is not expended until training is complete,  it can begin before having enough karma to raise something, so long as the character manages to earn enough karma before finishing, the training is successful.

[All4BigGuns]

All "training time" rules accomplish is adding more pointless bookkeeping and monotony and detracting from the game.

[Noble Drake]

Are you actually playing by those rules? Frankly, they sound very boring and I won't be using them.

I plan on playing with a slightly modified version of those rules - basically having each player record what they are working on, and each day not spent on a run is a day spent working towards improving those traits.

I think that it helps to add a sense of pacing by giving the players a reason not to try and go on a run every day of the week - and it forces improvements in the character to be planned choices, not spontaneous decisions brought on by thoughts of "what can I get with the rest of the unspent Karma I have right now?"

While some might see the training time rules as "pointless bookkeeping", I see them as another tool which can be used to help immerse players into the setting.

[Reaver]

All "training time" rules accomplish is adding more pointless bookkeeping and monotony and detracting from the game.

some people like this.... others not.

And I seem to recall a few old posts under 4e about training times as well.

[Shadowjack]

Are you actually playing by those rules? Frankly, they sound very boring and I won't be using them.

I plan on playing with a slightly modified version of those rules - basically having each player record what they are working on, and each day not spent on a run is a day spent working towards improving those traits.

I think that it helps to add a sense of pacing by giving the players a reason not to try and go on a run every day of the week - and it forces improvements in the character to be planned choices, not spontaneous decisions brought on by thoughts of "what can I get with the rest of the unspent Karma I have right now?"

While some might see the training time rules as "pointless bookkeeping", I see them as another tool which can be used to help immerse players into the setting.

I agree that your system is good. I like to see some semblance of realism regarding training times and rate of improvement. But I also don't like to use strict rules.

[Reaver]

Are you actually playing by those rules? Frankly, they sound very boring and I won't be using them.

I plan on playing with a slightly modified version of those rules - basically having each player record what they are working on, and each day not spent on a run is a day spent working towards improving those traits.

I think that it helps to add a sense of pacing by giving the players a reason not to try and go on a run every day of the week - and it forces improvements in the character to be planned choices, not spontaneous decisions brought on by thoughts of "what can I get with the rest of the unspent Karma I have right now?"

While some might see the training time rules as "pointless bookkeeping", I see them as another tool which can be used to help immerse players into the setting.

I agree that your system is good. I like to see some semblance of realism regarding training times and rate of improvement. But I also don't like to use strict rules.

then don't

you are always free to ignore something at your table if you think it is silly. (and there is more then a few who think the training time IS silly)...
Usually I caution against ignoring rules as it can have unintended consequences on the game.... but I am not really seeing much here other then avoiding some bookkeeping and saving time.

[martinchaen]

I've been balking at the training times of SR5 as well, until someone pointed out to me that having a Skill of 12 basically means you're one of the top experts in your field in the world.

Is it unreasonable to expect characters to have to train for an extended period of time to truly achieve mastery of something? It took me at least 6 months of dedicated practice (I was doing other stuff at the time, but a lot of time was spent at the range) to reach 0.5 MOA with my rifle, and part of that was learning the ins and outs of the firearm itself.

Skill levels definitely have changed in a big way from SR4 to SR5 so I don't mind the extra time it takes, and unlike All4BigGuns I think the system adds a little realism to a game of gritty, futuristic action sequences. Yes, the section could be more clear (I had to make a table to figure out what you can and cannot do), and yes, I think some of the rules are odd (Logic being the sole attribute that allows you to learn more skills at a time?), but all in all I think it's cool that it's there.

Of course, GMs who doesn't like it can ignore those rules just as easily as anything else. But it will apply in Missions...

[Crunch]

It's worth noting that the "cash" characters have a lot more uses for Karma in 5E than they did previously. Taking a single level 6 skill to 12 would cost 114 Karma. A Samurai probably has 4 or 5 key skills, a Decker at least 3, a rigger at least 3. So unless your games are going VERY long (500-600 Karma worth) there's a lot more karmically related up for the core competencies of your mundane characters than in 1-4 .

But that 114 karma expenditure to raise a skill from 6 to 12 will also require 114 weeks of training time, and any augmentation surgery performed will stop the training process.  Take more than 3 weeks off during a training step and you lose the time for that step.  Who's really going to be able to take 22 weeks to raise a combat skill from 10 to 11?  Meanwhile, raising your Resonance from 10 to 11 takes 11 weeks, and Submerging from grade 4 to grade 5 takes no time at all.

The cash driven characters won't have as much time to get any real use out of their surplus of karma because the team won't want to sit around for five months while they train a skill.  Meanwhile, the mage isn't taking anywhere near as long to spend his karma and needs more of it so he's driven to go out and keep working while the samurai is out running his sidearm with his offhand, in the dark, after spending an hour on the treadmill to get his heart rate up and his palms sweaty.

The "karma" classes have to deal with training times too. Notably initiation times can be pretty horrible.

[ZeConster]

The first two Initiations can be done in a single month each if you have Arcana + Intuition = 8.

[Michael Chandra]

The rules seem to imply the possibility to increase more than 1 rating point in 1 go, if you follow that one then instead of 99 weeks it'd be 18+24 weeks, and that's excluding reduction from Instruction sources.

[BetaCAV]

It's kind of a pity there was no attempt to make a GOD score equivalent for the meat-world; a "Street Overwatch Division" if you will.

Wearing/carrying Restricted or Forbidden gear would accrue points, whether you have a permit or not. Minor "suspicious behaviors" like stealth and shadowing rolls, to non-violent  spellcasting, to matrix activity, as well as gunshots, or explosions (including magical ones) will likewise increase one's score, but respectively more significantly. This is contingent upon how observed the character is; if there's no one there to make a concerned comm-call,  the rate would be reduced to what's picked up and flagged by traffic/security cameras, or watcher spirits and patrols.

This doesn't quite make it safe to play "Urrrban Renool" in the Barrens with your trusty Krime Kannon, though... it just determines who responds. Even the block after block of unstacked bricks is someone's turf, whether a sprawlgang or some scavenging paracritter.

At some threshhold, you'll start getting a KE drone watching from a distance, or a car's worth of gangers doing a slow cruise past trying to determine who's stuff they can have for free, and how much work is involved in getting everyone else's stuff. Of course, they'll start accruing SOD score as well, attracting unwanted attention of their own.

Thus a group of PC's testing the theory of slitting a thousand throats in a night may leave a trail of gang violence and KE crackdowns in their wake that escalates to a thing of dark legend that contacts may not want to be even remotely associated with. Or maybe they would, depending on who wins and who loses. [Cutting PC's off from their contacts will eventually stifle the game. Don't go nuclear unless they do.]