[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

A corporate limited SIN doesn't imply the same level of connection to the Corp that a full on Corporate SIN does.

So playing by the book people are suspicious of someone with a limited SIN and hostile towards a full corporate SIN.

Assuming they ever find out.

Until then, assuming it ever happens at all, the 25 point Corp SIN is just 10 more karma benefit than the 15 point Corp Limited SIN? 

[Crunch]

It's a flaw that's heavily influenced by table and roleplay issues, but here's how it would go at my table.

1) The corporation is less likely to be keeping tabs on the Limited SINner.
2) The stakes of discovery are lower in RP terms.
3) Any corporate SINner can to a certain extent be blackmailed by the corp. The threat of being stripped of your corporate SIN and retagged with a Criminal SIN should be a fairly major RP issue and has in game consequences as well in terms of having to repay the cost of the negative quality.

Like most potential or RP centered flaws how harsh it is depends on the table.

[martinchaen]

Never said they weren't clear.

They DO however need to change and change drastically.

Again, that's your opinion, not fact. I think they're fine just as they are, and that's my opinion...

Also, Stainless Steel Devil Rat, see ^^ from Crunch. That's basically my answer.

If your table is not RP heavy enough where the difference between the SIN qualities makes a difference, disallow it or rewrite it to fit your style. The way I play it, the rules are just fine.

As to how you would rewrite it, that'd be up to you. Your suggestion about making the SINs more like SR4 is certainly valid, as is whatever All4BigGuns wants to do beyond "just changing them".

[Mirikon]

The very real challenge comes in the form of role playing a desire to not run against your parent corp without giving away your secret. How do you explain to your team mates that you don't feel like doing this run because it is against your corp? What happens if you do the run; can you alleviate your conscience by nabbing the pay data and giving it back to the corp with a "this is no longer a secret" flag? Would you write one act off against secretly funneling other info to the parent corp on a regular basis? How do you play a reticence to act against a certain party that is hardly innocent in any way, shape, or form.

Well, depending on the corp, that can be easy. There are plenty of runners out there that have a reason not to run against a certain corp that doesn't involve being a SINner. Part of covering your tracks is preparing a convincing enough story. However, it could be as simple as just alluding to some trouble in your past that you don't want to dig up. Your team isn't going to want to share all their deep dark secrets either, right? Remember that your SIN status isn't the only secret out there.

[Ghoulfodder]

It's a flaw that's heavily influenced by table and roleplay issues, but here's how it would go at my table.

1) The corporation is less likely to be keeping tabs on the Limited SINner.
2) The stakes of discovery are lower in RP terms.
3) Any corporate SINner can to a certain extent be blackmailed by the corp. The threat of being stripped of your corporate SIN and retagged with a Criminal SIN should be a fairly major RP issue and has in game consequences as well in terms of having to repay the cost of the negative quality.

Like most potential or RP centered flaws how harsh it is depends on the table.

I'd add in that its not just about Mummy Corp. But given the point is you were a somebody and probably have familial connections who still are, rival corps may very well be interested in having a chat with you to see what they can squeeze out of you.

And if Mummy Corp is keeping tabs on you to make sure you aren't a security threat (reasonable and not too hard surely?) then if it wants to pay off a rival you've run against, she could always sell you out.

There are loads of ways you could use it if you want. I agree with Mirikon that they're an over complication on the SINs of SR4. But they're there now, so get creative and use them. Or don't use them if you prefer.

[Dal Thrax]

Corporate SINers are the princes of princes of the corporste world.  They're the ones who come out of business school into junior VP positions.  If they're still breathing, nobody believes they are out.  If one gets caught on a run it escelates things from shadowrun to corporate black op.  Catching one is like catching a foreign military officer up to no good on your territory.

Dealing with the corp birn is like dealing with a dragon.  Most shadowruners will put a bullet into a team member if they know they are corp born.  If you don't it's only a matter of time before they sell you out to get back into some corps good graces.  That type never leaves and if they have the skills to be a shadowruner they have the skills to be the person who tells the Johnson to hire the runners.  Besides runners do this because they have to, the corp kid is just slumming.  Do you want to have somebody for whom this is all a game watching your back (in character)?

[Elizara Dane]

That's one opinion, All4BigGuns, and you're more than welcome to run it as such.

Doesn't change the fact that the rules are fairly clear on the SIN quality; take it or leave it, as with everything else.

@Stainless Steel Devil Rat Nope, I wouldn't flip the rates. Look at the US today. Who pays more tax, the rich or the poor?

While Corp SIN runners are not necessarily rich they are considered privileged by the rules in the book, unlike those who merely gained admittance to a corp later on in life (limited Corp SIN).

I was meaning fluff-aside, game mechanics wise.

How else would you penalize, in-game-play, a PC with the 25 point Corp SIN disadvantage differently than another PC with the 15 point Corp-Limited SIN disadvantage?  Especially considering the one with the less steep disadvantage has the mechanical penalty of paying higher taxes.   The Contacts and friends are somehow "more" upset, if/when they ever find out the true Identity?  They're "more" likely to find out in the first place?

In the games I've run I use a system similar to how GOD in the matrix works. After a run I make a roll for each person with a SIN with a threshold based on their level and modified by things they did and did not do during the run. Were you not wearing a mask when you broke into a building? +1 dice. Did you take the time to remove any trace of your involvement? -1 dice. You can get really creative with your +/- to really reward or punish your players as needed.

One Corporate SIN player got particularly sloppy one run and afterwards, when everyone was expecting karma, he instead got a knock on the door. I gave him exactly 10 seconds to tell me what he was going to do and then let the scene play out. A few bullet holes and a leap from a second story window later he learned not only the value of a 25 point negative quality but also the value of professionalism. It may sound a bit heavy handed but now every player takes great care to actually play like those qualities mean something.

[Critter]

Elizara, would you be willing to share more details on how you handle this? It sounds like a pretty cool system to me.

[Reaver]

Also remember there is an advantage to the "Corp born SINner" negative quality....


Knight Errant can't just shoot you and get rid of the body!

As a Corp born SINner you are afforded all the rights, protections and freedoms of your parent corp. This means that when the shit really hits the fan, the Corp born SINner can just throw down his gun and say "don't shoot me! I'm an Evo citizen!!!"   ... which is yet another reason why those in the shadows hate/distrust a Corp SINner... they are not as invested in the run as everyone else cause "Daddy Corp" is always there to pull them out of the fire...


what the Corp does to their wayward child when they get him back however......

[Mirikon]

Sorry, Reaver, but that's just not true. While they would have to fill out some paperwork on you since you have a SIN, that EVO SIN only provides you limited protections off EVO corporate property. Think about it this way: how much does a US Citizen's citizenship protect them in Mexico, Japan, or Somalia?

[Reaver]

Sorry, Reaver, but that's just not true. While they would have to fill out some paperwork on you since you have a SIN, that EVO SIN only provides you limited protections off EVO corporate property. Think about it this way: how much does a US Citizen's citizenship protect them in Mexico, Japan, or Somalia?

In Mexico or Japan?

A fair bit. Somalia... does it even have a stable government?

While you are still bound by the rules of the zone you are in, the simple fact that you are citizen of a foreign country (in this case a Corp), means you get a "few" extra privledges that a regular citizen does not. But that is also determined by the nature of treaties between the respective governments. Case in point, Italy and USA. USA and Canada, Canada and France, USA and France..... each country has a different level of co-operation with different governments....

But the simple fact that you are a Citizen means they HAVE to follow procedures and paper work when dealing with you, and not the "50 grain" solution...
which, in the world of SR, is one HUGE advantage that the SINner has over the other members of their crew.... and yet one more reason for their distrust.

[Lynx]

I had one player quit on me because I told him NO this negative quality does not mean he has his own corp and he does not have extra territoriality and he cannot drive his corporations htr ambulance with guns and grenade launchers through Seattle scot free.

Then he told me he wouldn't be playing because I couldn't color outside the lines...

[Mirikon]

  Bwa?

That's not 'coloring outside the lines', that's writing on the wall of the White House while the coloring book is in Topeka.

[Michael Chandra]

Any player who tries to rulelawyer a negative quality into a purely-positive one is not a player lost, it's a headache lost. And this guy went beyond that. Good riddance.

[Reaver]

Gotta Agree Lynx,

you probably dodged the headache bullet there