[deepomega]

Trying to wrap my head around a request from player. Wants to hire a decker (also a player) to dig out a spell formula from the Matrix instead of paying for a talismonger to give it to him. I'm thinking this is legit, I'd just need to have a sufficiently heavy matrix search action threshold, but want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding the nature of formulae. It wouldn't be a physical thing, just a set of instructions, right?

[firebug]

It's entirely possible to do such a thing.  But it wouldn't simply be a search.  Spell formula are goods, and would be kept guarded (as with anything you'd normally sell, or had bought).  So the decker would need to hack into someone's secure files and steal it, since it's not going to be just freely available.

What it comes down to, really, is that no hacker is going to accept such a small pay (the price of the formula) for the risk of getting caught--  It's practically a one-man run, with the same risk of the GOD or a host coming down on your head.

[Michael Chandra]

Or worse, a visit from 5 Bound Spirits that decide to use every element there is to completely destroy the place.

[firebug]

Or worse, a visit from 5 Bound Spirits that decide to use every element there is to completely destroy the place.

Normally I'm against such harsh responses, but, yeah.  Pissing off a talismonger is just a bad idea.  The only time it'd be worth it was if it prettymuch was a full-blown run.  The talismonger had the formula to a completely (or nearly completely) unique spell, and the hacker was being paid upwards of ten thousand nuyen to go poking around for what would be a very, very secure file.

If your PC is just doing it because he really just hates the talismonger and doesn't mind paying a dozen times the price (or three times for a combat spell) then maybe he could find a hacker willing to risk it, but it'd just be hiring another runner.

If they've got a hacker buddy PC who says they'll do it for them, well...  Like me and Michael have said.  It'd be a big hassle with the same risks as a run with significantly less reward.

[deepomega]

Works for me! I'm still trying to get my head wrapped around limiting the characters' abilities to do anything the want. As a new GM, getting the threat level balanced to "dangerous but manageable" is tough. It only gets harder when they start doing shit on downtime.

[Michael Chandra]

I suspect any system containing such formulae is running within a wifi-inhibiting or completely-offline system, by the way.

[Csjarrat]

hell, you can buy formulae. just buy it online on a decent rating fake SiN. they'll prbably do overnight shipping for you too!

[Mirikon]

You can buy formulas online. And nothing says that you can't have a digital grimoire with your spell formulas. While shamanic types might prefer to have the spells in more natural formats, nothing in the rules says you can't use a formula off a computer screen to learn the spell. And, just as there are hacker houses that share code, there are likely the equivalent for mages and spell formulas. This'll be the generic stuff, mind you. Custom spells, original formulas, and the like are proprietary material, meaning they'd be protected and/or expensive.

[ZeConster]

Unless/Until there are rules describing how to use hacking to can obtain spell formula, I'd really not suggest allowing it.

[Mirikon]

Well, the rules are already in place. It is paydata, like any other. The trick is to find the right person to hack, and getting past their IC. The best spell formulas are going to be in the hands of the megas, national militaries, groups like the Draco Foundation, Atlantean Foundation, Illuminates of the New Dawn, and the Black Lodge, and the private servers of people like Ehran the Scribe. So... a slightly better chance of success than hacking Renraku's ZOG accounts?

[firebug]

Well, the rules are already in place. It is paydata, like any other. The trick is to find the right person to hack, and getting past their IC. The best spell formulas are going to be in the hands of the megas, national militaries, groups like the Draco Foundation, Atlantean Foundation, Illuminates of the New Dawn, and the Black Lodge, and the private servers of people like Ehran the Scribe. So... a slightly better chance of success than hacking Renraku's ZOG accounts?

You can buy formulas online. And nothing says that you can't have a digital grimoire with your spell formulas. While shamanic types might prefer to have the spells in more natural formats, nothing in the rules says you can't use a formula off a computer screen to learn the spell. And, just as there are hacker houses that share code, there are likely the equivalent for mages and spell formulas. This'll be the generic stuff, mind you. Custom spells, original formulas, and the like are proprietary material, meaning they'd be protected and/or expensive.

The issue with that is that the hacker houses only give out the most basic shit for free, and it's always stuff that's gonna deteriorate in a month.  The kind of shareware spell formulae you'd come across would probably be liable to melt your ass into goo trying to learn it, or worse, teach you something that only seems like the spell you want until you realize its trouble side-effects.  Hopefully for you it doesn't happen when a run goes red and your realize that Armor spell you torrented makes you an astral beacon for some bad spirits.  As GM, I'd probably liken it to glitching on a spellcasting roll, and make actual glitches even weirder.

My point is, nobody really understands magic.  Some amateur's formula or a telephone-game'd copy of an Aztechnology-taught Ball Lightning off Manapedia is probably more risky than you'd realize.

[Mirikon]

Except, Firebug, Hacker House does sell the good stuff (or has it available for trade). Same goes with spell formulas. You can find some for purchase online, if you know where to look. They'll be simple spells, though. You want a custom spell, you got to pay someone to write it for you, or write it yourself. And the really cutting edge stuff is going to be on some high security magical R&D terminals. Good luck hacking your way into those.

[Caradoc]

The Matrix is not a homogonous environment with high security present in most places to prevent you getting to all the fun places. There are areas of the Matrix where nodes are no longer maintained or are even shutdown and disconnected from the Matrix. Such occurrences would have happened with Chicago CZ, Crash 2.0 and SOX as well as many other areas such as certain Awakened lands and so on.

What an enterprising hacker could do is research those nodes and Data Havens that have experienced such events and are pretty much abandoned. It depends on if you are willing to go into a place like the Chicago CZ or an area overrun by ghouls or gangs where there are nodes that are no longer connected to the Matrix, but are likely to still have useful data stored.

For instance, learning that a well-known Arcane practitioner known for the spell formulae they would create on the Matrix was located in such a zone and who happened to get killed along with the rest of the inhabitants would make a great scenario for a team. They'd need do some legwork getting info and then have to enter the area to try and recover the paydata that might be on the node used by that person, provided it could be recovered or hadn't already been salvaged.

[Reaver]

Turn the issue on its head so the player can understand the problem:


A spell formula is around $2500 (more or less). It is going to be in a secure host, protected by IC and other measures.

Now he wants a professional (like he is) to break into the host and steal a formula for him for LESS then the cost (less then $2500).

Would he (the player) put his life and well being on the line for such a small payout?? After all, the decker risks getting his brain fried, or his deck toasted, or even having G.O.D become aware of him and tracking him down!!!


not much reward for all those risks IMO.




course, they could "trade" services. <inset evil laugh>

maybe the talismonger or Decker needs some "work" done that the mage can do.... so in exchange for the formula, they do a job. (which leaves you with a lead into the groups next job!)

[deepomega]

Yeah - the hacker owes money to a troll magician (both PCs), and is looking for ways to pay it down cheaper. Looks like we're gonna do a mini run, where the magician (who is broke and a squatter) robs a talismonger's with support from the decker. What could go wrong!