[BaronBanana]

I was just about to convert all the Arsenal 4th edition weapons to 5th edition rules for my shadowrun group when i stumbled over the rule for Machine Guns in the 5th edition.
I quickly compared machine guns to assault rifles and i couldn't grasp in which situation taking a MMG or LMG (especially a light one) would be viable.
             
                                 Accuracy      Dmg    AP       Mode       RC    Ammo     Avail     Price
AK97                             5              10P     -2      SA/BF/FA      -       38(c)        4R         950
Yamaha Raiden         6              11P      -2      SA/BF/FA     1       60(c)       14F       2,600

Ingram LMG                 5          9P       -2       BF/FA        2(3)   50(c)      12F       5,800
 

So basically the LMG is less accurate, does less damage and has a higher price than the Raiden. Even compared to one of the low-end assault weapons (the AK) the LMG sucks.

The slight benefit of the additional recoil reduction is pretty null and void as soon as you put a gasvent rating 2 in the Yamaha (same like the one used by the ingram LMG).

This comparison doesn't even include the negative effect that MGs stack recoil like crazy due to their special unresisted recoil x2 rule.


Am i missing something or do LMGs just make no sense in SR5 from a gameplay (not fluff) point of view? Please tell me that i missed something, i would be really glad

[Michael Chandra]

What makes Machine Guns so powerful is their option to go for beltfeed. This lets you fire far more rounds without having to worry about reloading. If you lay down Suppressive Fire with them, recoil also becomes irrelevant. So while with a Raiden you can lay down 3 rounds of Suppressive Fire, a Machine Gun can make it 5.

[Csjarrat]

only thing they did really well in sr4a was provide a decent belt fed weapon option for vehicles/drones. the option to stick an ammo bin on a reinforced weapon mount meant you could pretty much fire indefinitely until everything was dead and not need to worry about reloading.
of course, as a man-mounted system, even assault rifles are a bit precarious an option, let alone an LMG. i mean, how the hell do you move it about? its massive!? the recoil is huge so it has to go into a gyro harness which attracts attention like a bad mofo. i can only really see them being used by PC's as a vehicle mounted weapon or by a heavy weaps troll in a paramilitary/merc kind of game. other than that i think they're more likely to be statted up so GM's can deploy them onto players by means of HTR + paramilitary response teams.


edit: ninjad!

[BaronBanana]

What makes Machine Guns so powerful is their option to go for beltfeed. This lets you fire far more rounds without having to worry about reloading. If you lay down Suppressive Fire with them, recoil also becomes irrelevant. So while with a Raiden you can lay down 3 rounds of Suppressive Fire, a Machine Gun can make it 5.

That was pretty much exactly the only upside i saw after thinking about it for a while. But this only works if there won't be an option for extended clips in the upcoming Run and Gun rulebook. In the 4th edition Arsenal there is an option for an "extended clip" which basically increases the ammunition of SMGs or Assault Rifles to 100. Which left me with the conclusion: Any assault rifle + extended clip > LMG in every single way, except the fluff part where you might enjoy the sound of destruction by a machine gun

i can only really see them being used by PC's as a vehicle mounted weapon or by a heavy weaps troll in a paramilitary/merc kind of game. other than that i think they're more likely to be statted up so GM's can deploy them onto players by means of HTR + paramilitary response teams.

Even if you think about a gun for a vehicle, a proper Assault Rifle is superior to the LMG provided in the SR5 rulebook in every way (when you include the "feed unlimited ammo" feature you talked about earlier in your post).

I do get the purpose of HMGs, especially if you fit them on a troll who doesn't care about covered operations or attention, or on a vehicle. But LMGs and MMGs .... i dunno i can't envision having them used by my players in any situation.

[Michael Chandra]

Also, the fluff in Arsenal suggests it's possible to convert Machine Guns into Gatling Guns. And Gatling Guns have AWESOME Suppressive Fire.

But yeah, some weapons do not exist for being a proper choice, but simply because they exist. It also gives you a viable option for arming mooks.

[Rotor]

range table (p185) makes a small difference for lmgs and a bigger for the heavier guns.

[DWC]

range table (p185) makes a small difference for lmgs and a bigger for the heavier guns.

For the MMG, the range thing is huge.  I've spent most of Missions Season 5 wondering why I bothered with carrying an M202 over an Alpha.  Then the GM says "they're about 1100 meters away" and I shrug, shoulder the thing, spend a simple action zooming in, and splatter the dirty hippie all over the landscape.

Being just shy of a sniper rifle in range is kind of handy in some environments.  In most cases, the range doesn't matter so the only benefit you get is as a sustained suppressive fire platform.  However, suppressing with Stick'n'Shok is a special brand of hilarity since it's one of the few ways that you can actually incapacitate a target with a stray suppressive round.

[BaronBanana]

So the LMGs & MMGs are there for bursts at huge range and for suppression? Fair enough!
I hope thats not against the forum rules because i also have a somewhat related question and i don't wanna create a new topic and spam the forum page.

I noticed that MGs have strength requirements at the start of there section, but i couldn't find anything like that for cannons. I am only playing shadowrun for about a year so i am not sure about this, but a panther xxl can't be carried around without high strength right?

[Michael Chandra]

Well, you'd be dealing with something weighing at most 10kg, so I don't think so.

[Csjarrat]

So the LMGs & MMGs are there for bursts at huge range and for suppression? Fair enough!
I hope thats not against the forum rules because i also have a somewhat related question and i don't wanna create a new topic and spam the forum page.

I noticed that MGs have strength requirements at the start of there section, but i couldn't find anything like that for cannons. I am only playing shadowrun for about a year so i am not sure about this, but a panther xxl can't be carried around without high strength right?

Well, you'd be dealing with something weighing at most 10kg, so I don't think so.

10 kilograms is nothing. a standard bag of sugar is 1kg. I can carry 10 of them in a supermarket shopping bag with little difficulty. if we're talking about this guy:
The panther XXL Assault cannon's description: (emphasis mine)

"This huge fragging gun is an assault
cannon that uses ammunition similar to the primary
weapon in many small tanks. It comes with a built-in
smartgun system."

We're talking vehicle mounted or main battle troll level of strength. Just lugging about the spare ammo for this thing is gonna be taxing enough, let alone the huge launcher.

[KarmaInferno]

Fun note: one of the real life early dedicated-use extreme range sniper rifles from the 60s was simply a Ma Deuce machinegun, accurized a bit and mounted with a scope.


-k

[CanRay]

Fun note: one of the real life early dedicated-use extreme range sniper rifles from the 60s was simply a Ma Deuce machinegun, accurized a bit and mounted with a scope.

-k

Return of the "Anti-Tank Rifle", retasked as an "Anti-Material Rifle".  The M2-HB was originally developed for, amongst other things, to take out tanks between WWI/WWII.  By the time it got introduced, it couldn't take out most tanks on the field, but was still a damned fine weapon.

A primary usage of an LMG is to deny an area via suppressive fire.  The large magazine/belt allows for that, as well as (typically) a more robust mechanism to handle continually firing on full-auto than an assault rifle will.  This is the type of thing that will happen to most assault rifles if you try to use it as such for an extended period of time.

Of course, stuff like that can get pretty complicated pretty fast...

[farothel]

Because with an LMG you can do this. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tpsTDOVV4g (jump to about 45 seconds into the movie).

[CanRay]

Because with an LMG you can do this. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tpsTDOVV4g (jump to about 45 seconds into the movie).

Recon by fire?

[Dinendae]

Because with an LMG you can do this. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tpsTDOVV4g (jump to about 45 seconds into the movie).

Recon by fire?

"Anyone who runs, is a VC. Anyone who stands still, is a well-disciplined VC!"