[norskface]

Hi, I just got 5th edition and now Im on the point I just don't know any further so I registered here.
If its in the wrong place, please just move it.

-One of my problems is how to deal with owner ship and loot…
By looking at the test you have to make to change illegal the owner of a device I already almost gave up to think about taking any loot with me, even so my character is a Technomancer…

It is just quite to difficult and takes to long time on the one side to change the owner of for instance a Pistol. You never get the money back if you are selling it afterwards.
At the same time I don't think anyone would buy a gun he cant become the owner of it.

On the other hand, a machine sprite could help me to deal with it, but since the device cant be in the Matrix, because the owner would otherwise find it, its quite a problem. Also a wire connection is not working, because a TM only can attach the wire to another device, which has to be connected to the Matrix again, so he can connect to it…

So wouldn't it be just possible to “steal” the SIN from the comlink if it's a faced one and use it to change the user of all things you got, or is it connected to the Persona of the person, which is not steal able, or is it steal able, if you steal the complete physically comlink?
On this point I come to the question if a faced SIN is a file, you just can copy and delete. Otherwise I don't understand how its possible to have more than one faced SIN.

-My second question is, if TM can somehow can use wires and skillsoft without implanting s.th?
Skillsoft works actually the same way TM use the Matrix, so why shouldn't it be possible for them just downloading some, or is it somehow possible to connect wireless to some kind of external datajack?

-How is it possible everyone has a comlink but not everyone a SIN or faced SIN, if u nead a SIN for buying one or buying anything, because you need to become the owner of it.

You see me question almost always is turning around the same thing and I gues its related enough to Gear, to put it here.

[Maelstrom]

I  asked questions about ownership a while back too; here's the thread:

http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=13686.msg253097#msg253097

It's been pretty much agreed on the forums that the device has to be connected to the Matrix for the entire time of the hacking attempt to transfer ownership.  I think the ownership concept is a real pain, and doesn't make much sense (which I elaborated on in the aforementioned thread).  My suggestion is sell non-transferred items to a contact who will buy and hack them, or just leave loot unless you absolutely can't live without it.

It is just quite to difficult and takes to long time on the one side to change the owner of for instance a Pistol. You never get the money back if you are selling it afterwards.
At the same time I don't think anyone would buy a gun he cant become the owner of it.

Clearly the easiest option is for the owner to transfer ownership.  My decker did a transfer on a light pistol of all things for an insistent party member, because the group didn't understand what was involved.  So the group sat in a GMC bulldog on the edge of the barrens for 13 hours, and I succeeded literally on the last (single) dice roll on the 13th hour.  Since then the group hasn't been asking me to transfer ownership for every single item that comes along.  The GM does allow us to sell looted items to our fence contacts for a smaller percentage, without having transferred the ownership, but we don't keep anything we don't have "ownership" of.

So wouldn't it be just possible to “steal” the SIN from the comlink if it's a faced one and use it to change the user of all things you got, or is it connected to the Persona of the person, which is not steal able, or is it steal able, if you steal the complete physically comlink?
On this point I come to the question if a faced SIN is a file, you just can copy and delete. Otherwise I don't understand how its possible to have more than one faced SIN.

No, I don't believe you can use the owner's SIN to change all the ownerships.  The problem with ownership is it doesn't explain how it works.  RAW gives two options: legal transfer (willingly or no), or hacking.  Hopefully more info will be forthcoming in the Hacker/Matrix book.

[RHat]

Part of what you need to understand - looting, and especially looting for your own use, is not a big thing in Shadowrun.  It happens at times, but you don't want to do too much of it.

[Michael Chandra]

Stealing guns and ammo is possible, and snatching comms, but any further than that tends to require time that can get you busted.

[Medicineman]

just on a personal note I've been to  a few conventions playing SR5 and 4A but the tendency to looting is much higher now in SR5 than in SR4A .Quick removable Items (Comlinks,Weapons, Ammo,Helmets) as well as "easy-removal Cyberware" (Cybereýes and Cyberarms).
In the last two conventions there were two different Players/chars that removed Cyberware from enemies. That never happened in the last 5 Years of playing SR4A on Conventions....
Kinda "Return of Pink Mohawk" ? I don't know....

with a subjective Dance
Medicinemna

[norskface]

Thank you guys for the answers, but also on the 2 Links I didn't realy find a answer for my question.
Its sayed, that files are quite easy to steal. You just have to copy them and than you are the owner. Maybe still delete the old file (in case of a faked SIN, if a faced SIN is a file on your comlink.
So my questions are:
- Is the ownership related to the Persona, or (faced) SIN of somebody.
-If you have a faced SIN, how does it work, couldn't you just copy it and delete the “real” one?
-You cant steal a persona, but if you steal the comlink and hack it, is the persona yours, or the persona of the comlink somehow changes…. (I really don't get this whole process)

If its so difficult to steal things, all jobs related too “steal whatever object” are history, correct?

It seams like its not possible anymore, to get a “safe gun”… and you are always trackable, whose gun was fired where…

It would be still interesting for me, if someone could still answer me about the skill soft thing I asked.

[Maelstrom]

- Is the ownership related to the Persona, or (faced) SIN of somebody.

The consensus I received on the forums is no (and the book doesn't say it is).  If it were, I think it'd be almost impossible to be a shadowrunner.

-If you have a faced SIN, how does it work, couldn't you just copy it and delete the “real” one?

As I understand it, SIN data is on national registries, and I believe a SIN is also an accumulation of your life history (employment, medical, etc.).  I don't know the exact relationship between the national registries SIN data and the info on the commlink, but I'm certain that you can't switch ownership of SIN data by copying files.  I think that all comes under the realm of creating fake SINs, which the book basically says can be done but takes a lot of skill and an extremely long time.

-You cant steal a persona, but if you steal the comlink and hack it, is the persona yours, or the persona of the comlink somehow changes…. (I really don't get this whole process)

The persona is yours, regardless of whatever device you use to enter the Matrix.

It seams like its not possible anymore, to get a “safe gun”… and you are always trackable, whose gun was fired where…

Ownership is for electronic devices, so if you buy a firearm that has no electronics (i.e., a six-shooter or a throwback), it has no ownership.  RFID tags can be erased or set to "no owner," and both are a relatively easy process, so an item that has RFID tags on it but is not an electronic device (such as clothes or a golf club) will not have "ownership."  If an owner reports an item of theirs as stolen, and the item has "ownership," then the police can track the item.  I consider it akin to the device having a mark on it.

There's no rule stating that the authorities automatically know which gun was used to commit a crime.  I think there is a greater chance of your PAN leaving a data trail that the authorities can use to identify who was in the vicinity when the crime was committed.

Ownership is vague and raises a lot of questions.  It appears to be a tool to reduce looting, which is well and good.  (I'm not a fan of chopping up bodies for cyberware.)  But it needs explaining.

[Reaver]

SINs are a complex string of numbers and characters that contain your biometric data (birthdate, height, eye color, meta-type, blood tupe, DNA genome, etc.) Attached to this info is more malleable data, like citizenship,  employment history, place of birth, and where you live.

Your SIN also tracks all your purchases and expenditures as it is directly tied to your bank accounts.

SINs are only issued by AA corps (and above) and governments and are stored on highly encrypted data servers.... making the hacking of a SIN database something only the syndicates (Mob, Yaks, Triads, etc) can really do...

When you look at a fake SIN its rating is a direct relation to how well you fit the info of the SIN in question.  For a rating 1 SIN, you might match the eye color listed, and could probably use it to buy food from a stuffer shack. But forget about clearing Customs at an international Airport. A rating 6 SIN means you are almost a perfect match to the info and only a highly detailed query by a scanner has any chance of busting you.


It is due to the evolving nature of SINs that runners "burn" them from time to time... after all they can indirectly link the runners to the scene of their runs, or to purchasing habits, and other forensic evidence (including profiling)

[RHat]

The answer to your skillsoft question is a flat no - 'ware is required for their use.  There was an echo for technomancers in SR4 that allowed for skillsoft use, and this might return in Data Trails.

Due to verification methods, by the way, trying to use another person's SIN would almost cetrtainly immediately burn it.  Anything involving SINs uses a web of trust verification system, meaning it checks across a wide variety of different data points and databases.

As for guns, that sort of tracking isn't generally the case - there was one gun printed for SR4 where that was an issue, though.  In point of fact, skillsofts don't work in the same way as how technomancers use the Matrix.

And you can still steal things, but stealing everything that isn't nailed down is a bad plan (which has long been the case for Shadowrun).  You take what you're after, and maybe enough to conceal what it is you were after.

[norskface]

Ok it seam I just have to take it like that, that there is a mechanical rule which goes into an black box and turns out into some kind of fluff text, which I can except with the sentence:
“Its in the future and we just cant understand yet the possibilities they have than…”

I only find it a little bit disappointing, that I have to consider 3 mature topics in the game like this:
-Face SIN (because otherwise runners couldn't switch between there different faced SINs during the run)
-Ownership
-and Personas
And poorly all of them don't see anyhow connected…
Honestly it sounds to me like an horrible TV-series were every new season new strange and “exciting” appears and finally is explained in a very short scene which leaves a lot of questions… (Luckily I never watched “Lost”)

[RHat]

If ownership were by SIN, a lot of things simply wouldn't work.  It will. GET explained properly in Data Trails, but for now you have to understand that there's no means to manipulate ownership other than what the rules currently provide.

And personas have no logical connection to either - personas are created on the fly whenever you use a particular device to get online; they don't actually have any sort of permanence.

[Reaver]

I guess a way to look at it is like cell phones in Canada....

If my cell phone is lost or stolen, I can call up my provider and they can instantly track the phone by its unique serial number, they can also 'brick' the phone so that it can not be used. And the only way for the thief to get around that is to leave the phone powered off and change the MAC number of the phone as well as 'unlocking' its internally set provider. (Each phone is configured to only work with a single provider... thus a Telus phone will not work for a Bell account, etc)

Except since this is the future, it extends to all devices that connect to the matrix...