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Device Rating and weapons [5E]

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Kanly

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« Reply #45 on: <02-23-14/1646:46> »
Guns in Shadowrun are different, eg. b/c you can totally fire them w/o physically pulling the trigger. But if you want yours to be unbrickable you can always buy a throwback one, or just keep wireless off.

SichoPhiend

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« Reply #46 on: <02-23-14/1655:14> »
Guns in Shadowrun are different, eg. b/c you can totally fire them w/o physically pulling the trigger. But if you want yours to be unbrickable you can always buy a throwback one, or just keep wireless off.

It's very believable that up to date the guns in shadowrun no longer have a mechanical connection between the firing pin and the trigger, but instead use some sort or piston to move the firing pin. 
A piston activated by a computer after it receives a command either from a smartlink/remote control signal or from a signal from the trigger being used.  In this kind of setup, I can easily see a bricked gun being unable to work...and could also explain the difference between modern and throwback guns (with throwbacks still having a mechanical linkage between pin and trigger).
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WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #47 on: <02-23-14/1740:16> »
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It's very believable that up to date the guns in shadowrun no longer have a mechanical connection between the firing pin and the trigger, but instead use some sort or piston to move the firing pin. 

A piston activated by a computer after it receives a command either from a smartlink/remote control signal or from a signal from the trigger being used.  In this kind of setup, I can easily see a bricked gun being unable to work...and could also explain the difference between modern and throwback guns (with throwbacks still having a mechanical linkage between pin and trigger).
When you say that something is very believable, then point out a gaping flaw in that design that you can drive a semi through, it's no longer believable. Maybe for civilian models it could be believable, but for security and military grade weapons, not a chance. Most tools that involve life and death (guns fall in here) have a manual backup.

I cannot think of a single advantage gained by breaking the mechanical connection between trigger and firing pin on guns. There are only downsides.

SichoPhiend

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« Reply #48 on: <02-23-14/1802:37> »
I too can only see downsides, but that is because I grew up in a world that uses this system.  I'm sure when the Wheelock was invented, people who grew up with matchlock firearms did not trust them because there was no constant flame to ignite the powder, a flame that the matchlock provided.

Even today, military grade weapons are being developed to use both caseless ammunition and an electrical ignition for the caseless propellant.  This system uses a computer to control the electrical ignition, and therefore the rate of fire.  As Shadowrun has made it clear that caseless being commonly available, and caseless being more easily ignited electrically than physically, I find it to be believable that the majority, if not all guns would be made to that standard. 

As for how long it would take for people to trust electric guns over mechanical, who knows, but when it's what you grow up with, you only see flaws in other systems... just as we only see flaws with electric guns.
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RHat

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« Reply #49 on: <02-23-14/1817:10> »
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It's very believable that up to date the guns in shadowrun no longer have a mechanical connection between the firing pin and the trigger, but instead use some sort or piston to move the firing pin. 

A piston activated by a computer after it receives a command either from a smartlink/remote control signal or from a signal from the trigger being used.  In this kind of setup, I can easily see a bricked gun being unable to work...and could also explain the difference between modern and throwback guns (with throwbacks still having a mechanical linkage between pin and trigger).
When you say that something is very believable, then point out a gaping flaw in that design that you can drive a semi through, it's no longer believable. Maybe for civilian models it could be believable, but for security and military grade weapons, not a chance. Most tools that involve life and death (guns fall in here) have a manual backup.

I cannot think of a single advantage gained by breaking the mechanical connection between trigger and firing pin on guns. There are only downsides.

Firing through DNI, more advanced safety systems...  If we assume for a second that some of the technological functions can ONLY work if that link is severed, then it makes sense that it would be.

And throwback guns don't need an explanation for being "immune" to bricking, because they're not.  They don't have wireless, sure, but nothing stops you from plugging into it and bricking it over a wire.  Gun H(e)aven 3 did include rules for a weapon property that could indicate such immunity (Vintage, I think), but that property ALSO makes it incompatible to other technological features.
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Twilight

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« Reply #50 on: <02-23-14/1902:09> »
I would be shocked if any military ever adopts a weapon that can be fully disabled through hacking (some features disabled, sure).  Anyone who relies on weapons that can easily be hacked and disabled (and SR5 guns are trivial to hack unless slaved to a high-end commlink/deck) is dead.  I could see something like a mechanical selector switch - engage/disengage the mechanical linkage,  No gun should be bricked by simply doing matrix damage - it's just stupidly unrealistic (I'm willing to suspend disbelief for a lot of things but this is just silly).

Namikaze

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« Reply #51 on: <02-23-14/1916:34> »
Twilight, before you get your panties in a twist...  the guns of Shadowrun are matrix devices as well.  Therefore, you break the matrix device, you break the gun.  This is the future, not the present.
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WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #52 on: <02-23-14/1939:15> »
Firing through DNI, more advanced safety systems...  If we assume for a second that some of the technological functions can ONLY work if that link is severed, then it makes sense that it would be.

And throwback guns don't need an explanation for being "immune" to bricking, because they're not.  They don't have wireless, sure, but nothing stops you from plugging into it and bricking it over a wire.  Gun H(e)aven 3 did include rules for a weapon property that could indicate such immunity (Vintage, I think), but that property ALSO makes it incompatible to other technological features.
Those do not require that the mechanical connection between the trigger and pin be severed. They only require additional elements to be added. DNI could easily use a system just like a feathertouch pad. The trigger still works fine, but when you engage the feather touch pad, it triggers the pad electronically. Fry the pad, the trigger still works fine. Advanced Safety just has to engage the "safety." Nothing about that involves breaking the mechanical connection between trigger and firing pin.

So, no, it still makes no sense. It is, as with many SR 5 things, designed illogically and horribly if the trigger no longer connects to the firing pin.
Quote
I too can only see downsides, but that is because I grew up in a world that uses this system.  I'm sure when the Wheelock was invented, people who grew up with matchlock firearms did not trust them because there was no constant flame to ignite the powder, a flame that the matchlock provided.

Even today, military grade weapons are being developed to use both caseless ammunition and an electrical ignition for the caseless propellant.  This system uses a computer to control the electrical ignition, and therefore the rate of fire.  As Shadowrun has made it clear that caseless being commonly available, and caseless being more easily ignited electrically than physically, I find it to be believable that the majority, if not all guns would be made to that standard. 

As for how long it would take for people to trust electric guns over mechanical, who knows, but when it's what you grow up with, you only see flaws in other systems... just as we only see flaws with electric guns.
It has nothing to do with growing up with our current system. It has to do with actually analyzing the system being proposed. There is a rule called the five year old rule (I believe the reference comes from the Evil Overlord list). If a five year old can spot the gaping flaw in the system, come up with a new system. This proposal fails the five year old test. Given, the five year old I know is smart for his age, but still.

Sure, people hated the wheelock system at first. The people that actually analyzed it thought it was a wonderful improvement. The opposite happens as well. People introduce new systems that are horrible, and after analysis they fall by the wayside. Take a look at pinfire ammunition. There is a reason it didn't ever become a real standard.

As for electrically fired ammunition, yes it exists today. Yes, some of the systems use a computer chip to control rate of fire. Almost all of them will still work if the CPU fries by pulling the trigger and sending a single pulse (the pulse is connected to the trigger and works even without the CPU).

I see many advantages to electric guns. Quieter, lighter ammunition, easier to clean, no ejection port. The only current downside is really the lack of a good heat sink, which causes ammunition to cook off if the fire rate gets to high, but they've made leaps and bounds in that field in the past decade. Many use systems more similar to plastique than traditional propellants. This is called analysis. I see no reason to disconnect the trigger from the firing mechanism though. All that does is promote failure as the CPU is usually the most fragile element in most electronic devices. Again, it's illogical and horrible design to cut out the most basic  backup for a device.

RHat

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« Reply #53 on: <02-23-14/2015:04> »
Those do not require that the mechanical connection between the trigger and pin be severed.

You think.
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WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #54 on: <02-23-14/2121:02> »
No, I pointed out examples that use similar methods to work. They have things that function similar to Advanced Safety in todays world. I have been to a range where the rented guns will only fire when in the correct zone and pointed down range. They use it for safety training (they only allow rented guns in their safety courses). All it does is engage the safety when the gun is not in the safe zone and pointed down range.

Similarly, feather touch pads function by electrically triggering the firing pin, but I have never seen a gun that has the trigger disengaged to use the feather touch pad. I have never seen a gun with a feather touch pad that was broken, not be able to fire.

Clearly they do not require the contact between trigger and pin to be severed. The key word here is require. Both involve and electrical triggering of an event. Both can be electrically triggered on todays guns. Neither requires what you proposed.

Twilight

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« Reply #55 on: <02-23-14/2129:38> »
Twilight, before you get your panties in a twist...  the guns of Shadowrun are matrix devices as well.  Therefore, you break the matrix device, you break the gun.  This is the future, not the present.

Sorry.  This makes absolutely no sense.  Nobody would ever use a gun that can easily be disabled remotely (which all guns are under SR5 rules).  Breaking the matrix device should not under any circumstances disable the gun (disable some features, sure, but not the basic gun functionality).

SR5 feels like they are introducing rules because they suck at coming up with believable matrix rules.  Nobody ever uses wireless (I saw very few chars in SR4 with wireless enabled on anything except commlinks)?  Add wireless bonuses (that most of the time don't make sense).  Hackers feel left out in combat?  Make guns brickable so they can be directly effective (even though its a ludicrous idea).

I'm fine with the idea of wireless bonuses but they need to make sense (and a lot of them don't).  I'm fine with the idea of a gun's electronic systems being brickable (but the basic gun function should not be).

ImaginalDisc

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« Reply #56 on: <02-23-14/2307:29> »


I'm fine with the idea of wireless bonuses but they need to make sense (and a lot of them don't).  I'm fine with the idea of a gun's electronic systems being brickable (but the basic gun function should not be).


Shadowrun guns have caseless ammo as a standard option, can freely interchange ammo with any weapon of the same type, and have all kinds of bells and whistles like ammo counters. The trigger device may not be a mechanical trigger any longer, but an electric current delivered to the bullet's primer.

If you want a gun that cannot be hacked, get a throwback or make it one. The default option is that it's wireless.

Remember that weapons aren't wireless only to give the user advantages, but also the *owner.* It's actually rather difficult to steal an owned wireless device. this makes tracking stolen weapons a breeze. There are advantages for wireless guns that corporate/government bosses like.


"Boss, if we make all our guns throwbacks they become immune to hacking, but are easy to steal. Our own employees could start selling them off."

"How common is hacking?"

"Less common than theft."

"Go with the wireless guns."


Twilight

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« Reply #57 on: <02-23-14/2326:42> »
But why does a wireless gun get completely disabled when the electronics are bricked?  It makes absolutely no sense.

There are examples of a lot of the "nifty advantages" today and they still work if the electronics are destroyed (caseless ammo, electric firing, ammo interchange (within caliber which just indicates SR guns all standardized on caliber by type), corner cams, etc - I'm not sure about ammo counter but I expect someone has done it already).

Catalyst really needs to have people that actually understand tech review the areas of the book they have knowledge in.  It's pretty clear SR rules are often written by authors who have limited (or no) understanding of even current technology in the areas they are writing about.

WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #58 on: <02-23-14/2331:01> »
Anything you can do wirelessly, there are other ways to do in the universe easily as well. As for the trigger being connected mechanically, as I covered above, there are only downsides to that. There is no reason no to keep the trigger connected to the pulse device for electronic firing.

It's not that wireless should not exist on guns. It's that it's quite dumb for a mechanical gun (and there is no reason for the triggering device not to be connecting to the firing pin/pulse) to be unfirable by being hacked. It's like hacking my boxers and suddenly I can't unbutton the fly anymore. It just doesn't make sense. Then again, it makes about as much as sense as half of the wireless bonuses, so I'm seeing a trend.

RHat

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« Reply #59 on: <02-23-14/2347:31> »
No, I pointed out examples that use similar methods to work

My point being that you don't  actually know how a smartlink operates and what is needed for its functions.
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