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Device Rating and weapons [5E]

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WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #135 on: <02-27-14/2231:56> »
I disagree. It could say "The firing pin on an assault rifle doesn't work, but it's bayonet works..." The two sentences are not the same.

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Which requires you to be aware of each and every one of them, and each and every consequence of your changes, and on, and on.  It's not unlike the principle of bugs in non-trivial software, really:  Any non-trivial piece of technology will be breakable forever.
Physical manufacturing is completely different than bugs in software. That's why I have such a big issue with this. If you aren't aware of each and every one of the electronics you've put on a device, you're a pretty bad engineer. If you don't do your research on the consequences of them failing in each way they can fail, you're still a pretty poor engineer. Those are basic principles.

RHat

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« Reply #136 on: <02-27-14/2245:06> »
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Which requires you to be aware of each and every one of them, and each and every consequence of your changes, and on, and on.  It's not unlike the principle of bugs in non-trivial software, really:  Any non-trivial piece of technology will be breakable forever.
Physical manufacturing is completely different than bugs in software. That's why I have such a big issue with this. If you aren't aware of each and every one of the electronics you've put on a device, you're a pretty bad engineer. If you don't do your research on the consequences of them failing in each way they can fail, you're still a pretty poor engineer. Those are basic principles.

Being aware of all of your electronics, and being aware of everything that can happen with those electronics in combination and with malicious manipulation are not remotely the same thing.  Especially with Shadowrun's blurred-from-the-beginning (see: Crash 1.0) line between hard- and software.
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Namikaze

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« Reply #137 on: <02-27-14/2325:36> »
Oh my god - this conversation has been repeating itself for 5 pages now.  LOL this is ridiculous.  If it wasn't for the fact that almost all of the participants are active, useful contributors to other threads, I'd just put the whole thing on ignore.  As it is, I keep coming back, hoping that someone has actually made a difference.  I guess that's just the eternal optimist in me.
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RHat

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« Reply #138 on: <02-27-14/2344:58> »
The sad thing is, many of the points predate SR5...
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Agonar

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« Reply #139 on: <02-28-14/0056:43> »
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In a game, there comes a point where game mechanics, specially balance mechanics, trump the Real World.
Mechanics should never trump common logic. Especially balance mechanics. You design them around logic. Sure, everything has a price, but the price and benefit both need to make sense.

Let's look at the laser sight.
It puts a dot on the target. Somehow, this doesn't help you hit the target. It just makes it so that you can hit the target better if you were hitting already. However, if it wirelessly connects to the matrix, it somehow puts this dot on the target in a way that helps you shoot as well.

Ok, so the price is wireless on/matrix. The reward is a bonus die to hit. However, where is the logic behind it? That is why it fails, there is no rhyme or reason other than balance, which is poor design.

Actually, a dot on the target does help you hit your target.  If your accuracy is normally 4, and you roll 7 Hits, and your target rolls 4 hits, you miss.  That laser sight now lets you keep 5 hits, resulting in one net hit.  That laser sight is directly responsible for you hitting your target in that case.  Just because it doesn't provide a bonus die to roll doesn't mean it isn't helping.  Limit increases can help just as much as, if not more than, a bonus die in some cases.

As for having the hack-proof device.. Most companies probably ship their product as-is because they are running into a hard deadline, and further testing, and refitting, could mean the difference of a successful product, and loss of a contract.  But sure, if you really want it in your game, then introduce it.  Considering the time it took to hack each and every aspect of the thing, and to replace each and every faulty portion of the thing, the cost would likely be 10-100x the list cost, with an increased availability as well, because they are probably custom jobs, and not mass produced models.
 
I disagree. It could say "The firing pin on an assault rifle doesn't work, but it's bayonet works..." The two sentences are not the same.

Except that one sentence requires speaking with perfect form and grammar, and the other is a common way of phrasing things...   "We might not have any money, but we can still go out window shopping"..  Sure, you can tell people that they are not grammatically correct, but people speak they way they want to speak.  Being overly critical doesn't change the left-out context of that line and what it meant overall.

In the end, At your table, it's your game.  Leave out Wireless bonuses and consequences if you want.
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Insaniac99

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« Reply #140 on: <02-28-14/0404:27> »
I'm pretty sure a hacker could cause all sorts of problems if he has the controls to a gun.  If there is any active heating you can disable it causing rounds to cook off, you can force a misfeed, create an out of battery detonation (AKA slamfire).  None of these situations depend on any special connection to the the electronic circuitry except that it can control the firing of the firearm, which is clearly stated that the electronics do.
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Kincaid

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« Reply #141 on: <02-28-14/0710:53> »
In my experience, the best thing for a decker to do is get a mark on the gun prior to the fight beginning and then data bomb that file that's associated with the safety (previous editions described a "safety off" gun as being warm to the sim touch).  Even if you're not great with data bombs, you're rolling 10-12 dice vs. 2.  The way data bomb damage works, it essentially fries the gun as soon as it's out of the holster. 
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WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #142 on: <02-28-14/0727:11> »
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Being aware of all of your electronics, and being aware of everything that can happen with those electronics in combination and with malicious manipulation are not remotely the same thing.  Especially with Shadowrun's blurred-from-the-beginning (see: Crash 1.0) line between hard- and software.
Not in engineering. If you're doing it the correct way, those concepts are the same. This goes doubly so for anything that has to be rugged or is being used in a highly targetable area, like security.

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Actually, a dot on the target does help you hit your target.
No, it just let's you hit your target better if you're already good at hitting your target. It does not help you hit the target to begin with. An average joe with a mild understanding of shooting (3 Agi, 3 skill) gets no benefit with, say, a Lightfire. It doesn't help him hit his target.

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Most companies probably ship their product as-is because they are running into a hard deadline, and further testing, and refitting, could mean the difference of a successful product, and loss of a contract.
Security contracts usually work exactly opposite of this. If you ship a flawed product as-is, you lose contracts and reputation. No-one wants to buy flawed security products, and people rarely trust a company a second time in that field.

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None of these situations depend on any special connection to the the electronic circuitry except that it can control the firing of the firearm, which is clearly stated that the electronics do.
Only smartguns can be fired wirelessly.


ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #143 on: <02-28-14/1047:00> »
Security contracts usually work exactly opposite of this. If you ship a flawed product as-is, you lose contracts and reputation. No-one wants to buy flawed security products, and people rarely trust a company a second time in that field.

I see you've never worked with a military contractor  ;)

WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #144 on: <02-28-14/1156:04> »
They follow the same pattern. There is a reason they are moving toward quality systems like the SCAR-H. When they develop in house and then shop the plans to the lowest bidder, it causes quality issues all around. Not to mention, the lowest bidder gets a bad reputation.

The biggest issue with military contracts is that the lowest bidder can give funds to the person in charge of making the decision on what company to go with. Again, a good reason they are eyeing new systems for making those decisions.

ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #145 on: <02-28-14/1229:19> »
Security and military contractors are in fact notoriously awful at doing a whole lot of things, especially providing the actual services they get paid for.  Your statement that they're all amazing paragons of capitalistic pride who never mess up is about as far away from reality as I think one can humanly get.  The Bradley or F-35, the Breda 30, good ol' Papa Nambu which shot you if you sat down, the TEC-9 (which is good for looking real scary on the news, and virtually nothing else), pretty much everything done by KBR, or maybe the ADE 651 which did literally nothing...look, I can call on examples all day.

And this is Shadowrun - every single problem would go double!  "Reputation" doesn't matter, because it's not going to be hurt by a few lousy products.  The right people have their pockets full, you promise lots of jobs at the factory, and a ton of money flows right into your hands - that's the sign of a good product.  If the actual gun has security issues, who cares?  This is cyberpunk, not Glorious Make Believe Randian Libertarian Paradise.  If important companies cut corners that lead to lesser products and get away with it in real life, it's going to be amplified even more in cyberpunk - not completely vanished for no reason!

Sendaz

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« Reply #146 on: <02-28-14/1401:47> »
Security contracts usually work exactly opposite of this. If you ship a flawed product as-is, you lose contracts and reputation. No-one wants to buy flawed security products, and people rarely trust a company a second time in that field.
And sometimes you can even get paid more for sending it out flawed.  ;)

While they have seen reduced revenue from their work in encryption since then, they are by no means out of the game entirely, which says a bit about both buyer and seller in this shell game.


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WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #147 on: <02-28-14/1636:34> »
Well yes, spies want to buy flawed products for their targets. Occasionally they get away with that.

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"Reputation" doesn't matter, because it's not going to be hurt by a few lousy products.
It most certainly is. Where do you think the term brand loyalty comes from?

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If the actual gun has security issues, who cares?
The end user.

The cut corners don't get the giant contracts. They get tossed peanuts. Where are the large contracts at today? Colt with the M16A4. Beretta has the M9. FN has the SCAR-L although that's being dropped for the SCAR-H.

Look around the corner at SR and it's even more important to keep a good reputation. In US a contractor can get a contractor for the US for a decade or longer. In the SR universe how many nations make up what is the US today. They have to peck and fight for each contract and the moment CSA finds out the UCAS's rifles fry when a decker thumbs his nose at them, they're buying something else.

Kincaid

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« Reply #148 on: <02-28-14/1638:00> »
It most certainly is. Where do you think the term brand loyalty comes from?

Marketing departments.
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RHat

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« Reply #149 on: <02-28-14/1639:51> »
You know, Wells, one thing you need to remember about Shadowrun:  National militiaries have no influence whatsoever anymore.  They get to make do with whatever scraps the corps want to sell them.
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