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Cyberarm Questions

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Gripper

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« Reply #30 on: <02-21-14/2307:17> »
Thanks all for the opinions. As a GM I'd tend to side on the 9 agility as fair game. It is mechanical after all, with obvious advantage. I also tend to agree that getting a Cyberarm is MUCH easier than going to the gym regularly, so if you don't mind selling your soul...

That being said, I did say his agility is 3, not 1. An ability of 1 is a special. You're cerebral palsy is probably going to interfere with your CAoA.
« Last Edit: <02-21-14/2334:22> by Gripper »

Gripper

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« Reply #31 on: <02-21-14/2313:25> »
On a slightly different note: I know we're not mentioning strength, but I keep thinking of this (Arrested Development Season 4 Spoilers):
« Last Edit: <02-21-14/2315:04> by Gripper »

Xenon

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« Reply #32 on: <02-22-14/0241:18> »
So state of the art cutting edge gear (which a capped out cyberlimb is supposed to be) shouldn't equal great skill?
The cost of getting [up to] +8 to pistol skill using a cyberarm is not as high as if you want to get +8 to pistol skill using adept powers.
(1.0 essence and 49 500 nuyen - vs - 4.0 power points)

The cost of getting +6 armor using two cyber feet is not as high as if you want to get +6 armor using adept powers or dermal plating.
(0.625 essence and 36 750 nuyen - vs - 3.0 power points - vs - 3.0 essence, 18 000 nuyen and availability of 16)


Mystic Armor and Dermal Plating, however, ARE balanced towards each other.
Instead of making all spells (Armor Spell), adept abilities (Mystic Armor) and augmentations (Dermal armor, Orthoskin, Bone lacing...) that give armor overpowered (compared to people that does not use them) why not balance the armor bonus from cyberlimbs to acceptable levels (by limit foot/hand to max +1 armor and partial limbs to max +2 armor)?



The point i am trying to make is that here is a [huge] balance issue.

Everything have a price...
Well, for some types of builds you can get cyberlimbs without really paying the price.


But,
Getting 9 agility arm IS balanced if you at least have a natural, non-augmented, agility of 3+
Getting +3 armor per limb IS balanced if you get it on full limbs (a used obvious full limb cost 2.5 essence)
« Last Edit: <02-22-14/0247:58> by Xenon »

ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #33 on: <02-22-14/0330:21> »
The thing is, having low agility and/or strength sucks.  You can't really do much of anything physical - which includes running and sneaking, two things that are absolutely going to come up often in a run.

"I can shoot a pistol really good having put six points into the skill and burnt a full essence point and a ton of nuyen into it" is not a balance issue.  Compared to an actual combat guy with high agility, that decker - and let's be honest, you are pretty much referring directly to my decker as was linked in a previous thread - can barely move in or out of combat, can't sneak around, probably drowns in waist-high water, is terrible at trying to sneak and likely bumbles into everything, and .  But oh man, he can wave a pistol, look out!  This isn't a loophole, nor is this in any way cheese - and you better believe the 2 in agility and strength have bitten me before.

Oh, but I shot a dude once, man.  RUINING THE GAME!

Cyberlimbs need a mechanical purpose.  Right now it is "buffing up low stats."  Now, you can change that mechanical purpose to something else, by all means, but you have to actively do that.  If all you do is restrict cyberlimbs to the +4, why would anyone ever get one over the far essence cheaper bioware that applies to the whole body?  For example, you want cyberlimbs to exist primarily for the goofy cyber-additions that are bound to come or for armor?  That's easy - allow someone to boost agility or strength to +4 instead of +3, but now all cyberlimbs start at your physical stats rather then 3.

As for cyberlimb armor, it's less that armor is messed up and more that partial cyberlimbs have always been kinda half-done.

WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #34 on: <02-22-14/1032:40> »
Cyberarms do not add to skill. So, not, you don't get to +8 pistols from the cyberarm. You get +8 agility for that one arm.

Again, I don't see an issue with cyberware armor. If you're replacing all your hands and feet and popping in +3 armor, you're limiting your effective agility to 6(7).
That's not a good deal for anyone that's actually going to be a combat based character. You're dropping by a full hit on average.

I've already stated that the other sources of armor are overpriced (both essence, nuyen, and point cost). Armor has been getting less and less useful as editions go on, but it's keeping the same costs.

[quality]Getting 9 agility arm IS balanced if you at least have a natural, non-augmented, agility of 3+[/quality]
So, 25 karma is the big issue here?

Let's actually look at some math for a moment.
-A normal human can get from a 3 to 5 in agility for a mere 45 karma.
-To get his attribute to a 9, he can spend 124k and .8 essence on Muscle Augmentation.
-Alternatively he can spend 100k and 4 essence on Muscle Replacement.

If a cyberarm user wanted to be functionally the same, he'd need all four limbs replaced (A strict GM might require a torso for many things as well, but I'll go with a less strict ruling).
-Four limbs cost 60k base.
-Another 60k is needed to get the limbs up to a customization of 6.
-Another 78k is needed to get cyber enhancements at level three for agility in all the limbs.
-Total of 198k and 4 essence. He's paying a markup of either 98k or 74k over the non-cyberlimb user. He also is capped out on his agility where the normal person would still be able to increase by 1 more (for 30 karma).

If the character is only snagging a single limb, it isn't going to help him with a lot of skills. He's only getting a part of the benefit.

Now the biggest argument I see is, it's too cheap! I'm not seeing it. Proportionally is seems to be just fine compared to other options.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #35 on: <02-22-14/1253:36> »
"I can shoot a pistol really good having put six points into the skill and burnt a full essence point and a ton of nuyen into it" is not a balance issue.  Compared to an actual combat guy with high agility, that decker - and let's be honest, you are pretty much referring directly to my decker as was linked in a previous thread - can barely move in or out of combat, can't sneak around, probably drowns in waist-high water, is terrible at trying to sneak and likely bumbles into everything, and .  But oh man, he can wave a pistol, look out!  This isn't a loophole, nor is this in any way cheese - and you better believe the 2 in agility and strength have bitten me before.

No, it very much is a loophole exploit and it very much is pure cheddar.

Yes, Deckers are very much at the center of the problem here. It was back in the previous edition when a good chunk of people would be telling those asking for hacker advice to "get a 'cyber arm of awesome'" that I noticed the problem.

Cyberlimbs need a mechanical purpose.  Right now it is "buffing up low stats."  Now, you can change that mechanical purpose to something else, by all means, but you have to actively do that.  If all you do is restrict cyberlimbs to the +4, why would anyone ever get one over the far essence cheaper bioware that applies to the whole body?  For example, you want cyberlimbs to exist primarily for the goofy cyber-additions that are bound to come or for armor?  That's easy - allow someone to boost agility or strength to +4 instead of +3, but now all cyberlimbs start at your physical stats rather then 3.

They have a mechanical purpose without the attributes. This is the getting the additional components (yes, that is very much a mechanical addition, it just isn't one that is easily and cheesily abused).



If it were feasible under the base rules with no alteration for a character with more standard implants to reach that 9 attribute value, it may not be as bad, but it isn't. Availability and costs are too high on the implants in question. It would still be bad though since to reach a 9 Agility normally, one has to focus a great deal of their attribute points there (as well they should) and buy a maximum rating Muscle Toner or Muscle Replacement, both of which are among the implants that got the ludicrous price hike. It is completely ridiculous to expect to be able to have a 9 Agility cyber arm for less than half what it takes a standard character.
« Last Edit: <02-22-14/1335:45> by All4BigGuns »
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Xenon

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« Reply #36 on: <02-22-14/1417:25> »
we are talking about a characters that focus on mental attributes and skills.
(except a single pistol or automatics skill).
- Like a Decker

But by spending less than 2 essence and  87k nuyen he get +11(!) armor (and higher agility and strength) plus a positive dice pool modifier of +8(!) dice on his pistol or automatics skill. It is RAW legal, but if you don't agree that it is even a little cheezy then you and I have [vastly] different perspective on this matter :)


Enhanced armor is not really an issue for characters that get full limbs anyway.
Enhanced strength and agility is not really an issue for characters get natural agility and strength of 4+ anyway.
Actually quite the opposite. Human cyberlimbs start at strength 3 and agility 3, which is the metatype average rating - IMO an Orc cyberlimb should not start at strength 3 and agility 3 as it does for humans. It should start at 5 strength and 3 agility (before customization). For Trolls; a cyberlimb should start at strength 7 and agility 2.
« Last Edit: <02-22-14/1420:04> by Xenon »

ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #37 on: <02-22-14/1539:21> »
All I see over and over again are proposed nerfs with nothing to add to them.  All you'd do is render cyberarms useless.

Again: What mechanical role do you see cyberarms holding?  Answer that before you respond.

And yes, again, all people seem to be salty about is that I shoot a pistol real good.  You could TRY responding to any of the points Wells or I brought up rather then just stamp your foot and continue to proclaim "NO IT'S CHEESE."  But you haven't.  You just continue to state that no, it's unfair that I can shoot a pistol good having spend a rather large amount of resources on it.

And incidentally, "by spending less then 2 essence?"  Yeah, by spending at least 1/6th of his entire resources that he'll ever have for that character.  Let's not pretend a full essence point isn't a big deal to gain one bonus to one skill.

Xenon

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« Reply #38 on: <02-22-14/1603:39> »
And incidentally, "by spending less then 2 essence?"  Yeah, by spending at least 1/6th of his entire resources that he'll ever have for that character.  Let's not pretend a full essence point isn't a big deal to gain one bonus to one skill.
...and +11 armor ;)
...and the "bonus" is a positive dice pool modifier of up to +8(!) dice

...and still have capacity left in the arm for a cybernetic gyromount which let you run and shoot without a negative dice pool modifier...

(and besides, after cerebral booster -and possible tailored pheromones- there are not really that many augmentations that actually benefit a mental focused character anyway).



WellsIDidIt state that cyberlimbs are not OP if you get multiple full limbs.
I agree.

WellsIDidIt state that cyberlimbs are not OP if you already have moderate to high physical attributes.
I agree.

WellsIDidIt state that armor on hands and feet is bad if you are a physically combat oriented character.
I agree.

ProfessorCirno state that having low physical limit sucks for a physical oriented character.
I agree.

ProfessorCirno state that cyberlimbs should cost less if you have high physical attributes.
I agree.

WellsIDidIt state that all other armor enhancements are underpowered compared to enhanced armor on cyberlimbs
I agree.
« Last Edit: <02-22-14/1606:32> by Xenon »

Niladen

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« Reply #39 on: <02-22-14/1909:04> »
And incidentally, "by spending less then 2 essence?"  Yeah, by spending at least 1/6th of his entire resources that he'll ever have for that character.  Let's not pretend a full essence point isn't a big deal to gain one bonus to one skill.
...and +11 armor ;)
...and the "bonus" is a positive dice pool modifier of up to +8(!) dice

...and still have capacity left in the arm for a cybernetic gyromount which let you run and shoot without a negative dice pool modifier...

(and besides, after cerebral booster -and possible tailored pheromones- there are not really that many augmentations that actually benefit a mental focused character anyway).

Where is this plus eleven armour coming from? A single full cyberarm will give  you three, and only if you decide to use capacity and cash on it. As for the whole idea of getting two hands and two feet loaded with armour, that is easily countered by your table having a GM.

That up to eight dice only counts for a small handful on tests, pretty much just attacking with one handed weapons and, if your GM is really generous, possibly palming.

The cyber gyromount also takes up half the space in the arm for just ignoring three dice worth of recoil or movement penalties, and if you want to have the gyromount you can no longer get three ranks for strength, agility, and armour each in the arm.

As for the cyber, there is plenty that benefits mental focused characters. The two you mentioned in addition to cybereyes, cyberears, control rigs if you're a rigger, olfactory boosters, skilljacks, implanted commlinks and cyberdecks, wired reflexes, synaptic boosters, reflex recorders, sleep regulators, mnemonic enhancers and those are just the obvious ones I can think of. All of that adds up to a lot of essence that you've already spent on one limb that does a very small number of things at the level of someone who actually focuses on it, but gimps you in every other area related to it. You ever try playing with a walking rate of two meters every three seconds? The average person walks almost twice as fast as a one agility character, they'd have to break into a light jog everywhere they went to keep up.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #40 on: <02-22-14/1946:22> »
All you'd do is render cyberarms useless.

No, cyber arms just wouldn't be "OMGWTFBBQ, practically all hackers pick one up" kind of good the way they are now (though hackers don't need to even know how to use a gun anymore with how they can now completely shut down a Street Sam without leaving the van).
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WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #41 on: <02-22-14/1954:50> »
Odd, I have yet to see a hacker take one in 4E or 5E. I also have yet to see a hacker that would benefit from having a low agility and a "arm o' doom." Then again, people I play with tend to stick to the shadows and stealth. Stealth needs agility. They also have a tendency to have to climb around, which again uses agility. Lockpicking isn't uncommon for them. Given that can be another character, but whoever does it needs agility. So the arm o' doom can do what, shoot well? I guess that comes in handy when you've botched the job, but the people I play with tend to play smart instead of tripping over the nearest crack in the floor, falling down, and shooting people.


Xenon

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« Reply #42 on: <02-23-14/0602:58> »
Where is this plus eleven armour coming from?
2 used feet, 1 used left hand. All three enhanced with +3 used armor
1 full right arm. customized with +3 agility and enhanced with +2 armor and +3 agility

= 87k nuyen and less than 2 essence


The investment would be vastly higher if he want to get a positive dice pool modifier of 8 dice on his pistol skill and +11 armor using other augmentations, adept power and/or spells. The benefit is simply too great for the relatively small cost (which is pretty much the definition of something that is not balanced).

Here, let me put it in perspective; 2 essence is basically the same as 2 power points (at least for a physical adept that mostly only use his first magic points at chargen for free power points anyway). For 2 power points an adept decker only get +4 armor or a positive dice pool modifier of +4 dice to his pistol skill. If the adept decker instead invest less than 2 essence (and indirect also 2 magic and 2 power points) in augmentations he get +11 armor and a positive dice pool modifier of 8 dice to his pistol/automatics skill.

With my proposed house rule he would only get +5 armor and a positive dice pool modifier of +6 dice to his pistol/automatics skill.
Still powerful, but at least it is not as abusive.

...that is easily countered by your table having a GM.
Why would it be countered by a GM if it is working as intended??
..or are you agreeing that cyberlimbs can be a bit abusive (in some special situations)?

...you can no longer get three ranks for strength...
Yes, there are other stuff a Decker could use the extra capacity in his arm for instead of a gyromount (internal Cyberdeck comes to mind)
- but why would a mentally focused character (like a a Decker) ever want to enhance the arm with strength...?

(Note that having the ability to run and at the same time use suppressive fire with a machine pistol or sub machine gun without a negative dice pool modifier should not be underestimated. When you are running you get a positive dice pool modifier of 2 dice to avoid getting hit from all attacks [including melee] and ranged attackers all get a negative dice pool modifier of 2 dice to hit. It also last the entire combat turn until it your time to act again in the next combat turn... all it cost you is your free action - running basically act as spending a simple action to Take Good Cover - without the need to spend the simple action...and without the need for Good Cover to hide behind or ending up without defensive cover if flanked).

Odd, I have yet to see a hacker take one in 4E or 5E.
ProfessorCirno just showcased his decker ;)

But he could have done more.
Going Human E and Magic D for example
- Spend up to 3 or 4 Essence worth of augmentations
- And then spend Karma to raise his Magic Rating from 0

This either give him free Power Points(!)
...or give him the ability to cast utility spells (who needs stealth skill and a physical limit when you can cast improved invisibility and stealth spells)
...or the ability to summon spirits(!) :D

...people I play with tend to stick to the shadows and stealth. Stealth needs agility. They also have a tendency to have to climb around, which again uses agility. Lockpicking isn't uncommon for them...
Yes, the arm of awesomeness is not really going to help your Breaking & Entry-expert much since she will almost exclusively depend on her physical limit and having overall high natural agility and strength ratings (and after that she is probably augmented or enhanced even further).
« Last Edit: <02-23-14/0622:11> by Xenon »

WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #43 on: <02-23-14/1121:43> »
Quote
2 essence is basically the same as 2 power points
This is where your thinking is flawed, and it seems to the base of your issues.

Essence is not equal to PP. There is no equivalent exchange rate.

Quote
+4 dice to his pistol skill.
You're making the wrong comparison here as well. To be comparable he would need to be increasing his agility, but only in one arm. There is no Adept Power that does that. The closest is agility across the whole body. That caps out at +4 for 4 PP.

Let's take a look at Some options though. Muscle Replacement increases both Agility and Strength by 1 for 1 essence. (It's twice as good as improving an attribute with PP using your exchange rate). Alternatively, Muscle Augmentation increases Agility by 1 for .2 essence. That's less than 1 essence for a +4 increase. That's over 4 times better using your exchange rate.

Niladen

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« Reply #44 on: <02-23-14/1318:35> »
Yeah, I have to agree that two essence is not the same as two power points, and about the only thing I see exploitative about cyberlimbs is going the two hand, two feet loaded with armour deal which, again, is solved by your table having a GM.

Edit: Grammar.