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crowbars and mini-welders

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kuromi

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« on: <05-07-14/1304:27> »
(FYI, I'm asking about how the following would work under 5E rules) How exactly do crowbars work exactly? It says it doubles your effective strength for forcing open a door, but how exactly do you force open a door? Is it the rules for destroying barriers, so i.e. cause enough damage to exceed the structure rating? But what is the damage code? Double my strength? Or am I rolling double my strength and adding it to some factor to come up with the effective damage value?

And if I have a strength of 7 and do 9P with my fists because of bone density augmentation, with a agility+unarmed pool of 16 with 10 physical limit, should I even be bothering with a crowbar, or should I just punch the door? Because on average, the expected number of hits on the attack would be around 5, so the door would be facing 14P damage. But like I said, I don't know how exactly the crowbar works, so if its just straight double effective strength vs the door, that's an automatic 14 without a roll.

For that matter, how does the mini-welder work. Its just a straight 25P vs the door? Is there a test to increase hits? How long does it take to cut through?

Kincaid

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« Reply #1 on: <05-07-14/1454:48> »
The rules aren't explicit, but I have people roll straight Strength vs. whatever threshold I figure is appropriate.  Crowbars are literally the only item in the game that doubles something--they are amazing.  Note that using a crowbar to pry open a maglocked door really isn't feasible, you'll need to stick to older doors, grates, etc.
Killing so many sacred cows, I'm banned from India.

mjack

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« Reply #2 on: <05-07-14/2350:09> »
We use crowbars with the rules for destroying Barriers (5E CoreBook, p.197/198). A melee attack with the Exotic Melee Weapon skill [ACC 3, like Sledge Hammer (5E R&G, p.22)] and according to the rules for crowbars with DV (STR x 2)P + Net Hits. For Barriers with weak points like door hinges or gaps a successful attack (DV > Structure) will break open the Barrier without literally destroying one square meter of it. In case of a solid Barrier the Damage is resolved as for any other non-penetrating weapon - a hole of one square meter per increment of Structure value. Additionally, we agreed on substituting Exotic Melee Weapon for crowbars with Clubs skill, but with a dicepool modifier of -4 … Yes, and the Adept Power Enhanced Accuracy (Clubs) of course also applies here  ::)

For chainsaws we use pretty much the same rules. Exotic Melee Weapon skill [ACC as listed] (no substitution allowed here) and DV as listed + Net Hits. Instead of destroying one square meter of the barrier with a successfull attack the cut has a length of one meter per increment of Structure and Barriers with weak points will be forced open.

The Mini-welder we rule a bit different. Like the crowbar there is no ACC listed and we decided - or rather I pushed through - that the Mental Limit is used instead and no Combat skill. The "attack" roll is Industrial Mechanics (Welding) [Mental] resolving Damage with 25P + Net Hits. If this skill is not available (and defaulting is not possible either) 25P is still a fair damage even if not buffed with Net Hits. The destruction is handled the same as for chainsaws.

A character with high STR and some Augmentations/Powers or just a Knucks to deal Physical damage (Barriers ignore Stun damage anyway) can destroy weaker Barriers like common doors quite easily, yes. With a Troll and Bone Lacing/Bone Density it could even be possible to punch through Structure 8 or 10 yet, especially when applying the Physical Limit for an attack with the Unarmed Combat skill. But well, that is what Trolls are for … With a crowbar it is even more effective strength-wise, but just think of a crowbar with metahuman customization for Trolls  ;D

As already mentioned, Barriers ignore Stun damage. We house rule this a bit and allow attacking Barriers with Stun damage, too. As long as a Character's BOD is equal or higher than the Barrier's Armor an attack has no drawback, but if not a Character suffers (Barrier's Armor)S damage from something way too solid while still being able to destroy it. Furthermore, on p.197 in 5E CoreBook it is said the Struture rating is for one square meter "of about 10 centimeters thickness". We ignore this and loosely handle it on GM discretion (or extensive internet research ::)) how thick a Barrier really should be, because 10 centimeters make sense for a brick wall, but even fragile standard glass of such a thickness would be pretty much unbreackable.

And for the time required to make one attack against a Barrier we use (Barrier's Armor) Complex Actions here.


I hope this helps. Maybe not with clarifying rules written or intented, but as an inspiration how things could be handled. If there are some rules for certain mechanics making these house rules redundant, please let me know. Thanks.

Kincaid

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« Reply #3 on: <05-08-14/0945:45> »
Bone lacing wouldn't help.  It doesn't add to your strength and you're not making an unarmed attack.
Killing so many sacred cows, I'm banned from India.

mjack

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« Reply #4 on: <05-08-14/1024:58> »
Bone lacing wouldn't help.  It doesn't add to your strength and you're not making an unarmed attack.
Yes, of course. I meant a Troll with Bone Lacing or Density Augmentation is already effective against Barriers with an Unarmed attack. A Troll with a crowbar would not implicitly deal more damage to a Barrier, because of the lack of possible Net Hits … But, the Base DV would be much higher due to the doubled STR with a crowbar and thus might make an attack roll almost needless.

RAW for Destroying Barriers is always requiring an attack roll and be it just the fun to watch someone fail with a critical glitch. But as there are no rules for attacking Barriers with crowbars or mini-welders I guess RAI could be very well that you do not need to roll an attack at all and the Barrier just takes the Base DV of these tools?! I have not thought about this before, but I will introduce this to my game with the limitation of not requiring (but optionally allowing) an attack roll as long as Base DV is higher Barrier's Armor rating. I love derived values!
« Last Edit: <05-08-14/1026:55> by mjack »

MortimerBane

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« Reply #5 on: <05-08-14/2203:05> »
Crowbars are awesome once you know how to use them.  Anyone who's been through Ranger school or any spec. ops school will tell you that they have spent many hours learning all about different crowbars and how to use them on an amazing array of 'portals'.  A sealed door takes so many pounds of pressure to defeat the hinges or locking mechanism.  A crowbar is used to concentrate and amplify a soldiers strength usually at the hinge.  Doubling the effective strength in WAR makes perfect sense as you still need a bit of muscle to pop a big door off it's hinges.