[gmoney999]

I have a Dwarf Mage that is heavy in many of these secondary skills. I haven't had the chance to use him that much, but here are my thoughts so far.

Alchemy - situationally useful.  It's actually more difficult to make lynchpins then you might think and they usually come out weaker then your main spells.  Cool, but it kinda slows down the game (lots of rolling). It not that fun to interrupt your GM and say, how much time do we have to prepare?  Then you make rolls for making the lynchpin, drain, perhaps multiple times, then body and willpower for each hour you heal.  That can be lots of rolls, so I think it really depends on the table.

Disenchanting - sounds like it would be useful for a astrally projecting Mage.  Giving them another way to effect the battlefield by turning off foci. I haven't had the chance to use it yet though, and I don't think it will come up on its own without me mentioning it to my GM.  Also is it a complex or simple action? I don't remember seeing that in the book. Could be better if you could disenchant as a simple and reckless spellcast as another simple.

Astral combat- this is the skill that seems like it would be really useful, but my character doesn't have the attributes for it.  Not sure how I would make an astral combat specialist as a dwarf without losing lots of skill points. And there are enough elves at the table.

As always I think a lot of the skills are really up to the GM in their usefulness.  If you had a GM that is really comfortable with the magic rules and how magic exists in the everyday world you could get lots of mileage out of them.  But both my GMs are just really getting comfortable with the rules in general.  Still really like my Mage though. He feels like a real seeker of forbidden knowledge, and not just a combat caster.

[emeketos]

My mages always made their own foci and on occasion make Oraculum (sp?) on the side of extra income.  I realize its easier in some ways to just buy the items for me it wasn't I bought this. It was I made this weapon bitches it fits my hand perfectly. Honestly when a mage starts picking up Alchemical skills he has no need for money ever again.

Same with researching spells particularly custom spells. Ie a Pixie mage creating a spell to "look" human or at least dwarf/child. Travelling the world where you were considered vermin and shoot on sight with no law penalties made that a big goal.

--edit--
Ritual Magic I have only used once maybe 2x in my entire experience playing shadowrun from 1st edition to now. At best its just a plot mechanic possibly part of a scenerio or other abstract gobbidy-gook game mechanic...

Eg. you go to your lodge and talk to your other initiates to try and track down mr. bad guy. 
-Party- Mage now that we found him can we hit him with a fireball
-Gm- Err yesmmm no no there is this thing umm astral spirit that would notice you and you think it would be bad too..
-Party- but it says right here.....
-GM- read read read. ooh darn you ran out of time he went into a building with a mana barrier too bad.

[a very angery werefox]

i never put binding on shamen mages. most my mentor spirts run by gms have warned me its dis respectfull.  my wolf mentor guy got chewed out for onces binding a force 10 spirte we needid for a run.

[Michael Chandra]

They don't like it, but you can still explain doing so since sometimes you NEED those extra service possibilities. As long as you treat them with utter respect, and have a real reason for it, it's not that disrespectful, especially not if you make a deal with the Spirit to get them something. It depends on how your GM interprets it, and how much chance he's willing to give you to proof yourself. If he's chewing you out without any redemption possibilities, it sounds like he's going overboard.

Of course Binding a Force 10 Spirit would likely kill you in my games, given how you risk taking a LOT of Physical Drain on the resisted-with-Edge Oversummon, leaving you at bad odds to then survive the Summoning+Binding.  You'd pretty much have to get a decent amount of Centering first to live, using 4 Edge in one go (Summon, Drain, Binding, Drain.)

[Furious Trope]

i never put binding on shamen mages. most my mentor spirts run by gms have warned me its dis respectfull.  my wolf mentor guy got chewed out for onces binding a force 10 spirte we needid for a run.

This is why I want some kind of alternate mechanic for people who don't want to be dicks to spirits. Bartering with reagents maybe.

[Whiskeyjack]

Let's be clear: binding at a baseline isn't being a dick, though it can turn into that easily. But it's not that as a default in the rules. If you or your GM think it is or play it as that, that's fine, but it's not enshrined in the RAW that way.

[Davidvs]

There are some things that one needs a bound spirit to accomplish. I have a Shaman and while I don't bind often I do when I have a reason too. Though I try to be nice and even tip spirits with reagents too.

I don't like to mow my lawn but, I have too. Some people don't like their jobs but, still do them. Just cause spirits don't like something doesn't mean you can't work around that.

[Furious Trope]

Let's be clear: binding at a baseline isn't being a dick, though it can turn into that easily. But it's not that as a default in the rules. If you or your GM think it is or play it as that, that's fine, but it's not enshrined in the RAW that way.

True.

That said, it just doesn't feel right, fluff wise, to me for a Shaman to force spirits to their will without even the option of some more consensual working relationship.

[Whiskeyjack]

Hm, I think an optional chiminage mechanic involving reagents or something would be col.

[SlowDeck]

Let's be clear: binding at a baseline isn't being a dick, though it can turn into that easily. But it's not that as a default in the rules. If you or your GM think it is or play it as that, that's fine, but it's not enshrined in the RAW that way.

True.

That said, it just doesn't feel right, fluff wise, to me for a Shaman to force spirits to their will without even the option of some more consensual working relationship.

Depends on how you roleplay it.

One of the old myths about fey, which later on came to influence a lot of ideas about magic (and might actually the basis behind the concept of a Faustian deal), is a favor for a favor. Basically, you're bartering either doing something or having done something in return for the spirit doing something. Note this is also found in a lot of forms in other religions, but the fey are really the clearest example of it.

So, how can that translate to binding? Your shaman cuts a deal: For allowing you to bind them, you owe the spirit one favor for every service it does while bound. This creates a form of barter, where all the spirit is doing is trading a short binding period for being able to get you to do things later.

This also creates a plothook later, when the spirit comes to call in the owed favors.

[emeketos]

You are not forcing you are making a contract. Binding materials are very expensive in sr4 anyways the the offering of the materials Benifits the spirt in some abstract way.  By not binding spirits or making a contract, or offering  or what ever you want to call it is not a negative relationship. thats not to say it can be  when you use or how you use the services. There always is the rare chance these spirits can become free spirits which is extremely beneficial to the mage/shaman. As this lets the spirits manifest at will in the material plane.   

[Michael Chandra]

Sure, they don't like being bound, but you can talk with them about it before you succesfully bind them, explain the situation you need them for, and promise you'll treat them fairly.

Abuse would be making a Spirit of Man hunt down Rats with services. Non-abuse is doing it because the idiot fled, by bike, from a Barghest and having the Spirit pout and demand to at least ride the bike until dawn then.

(Yes, last night's online session was fun. ^_^)

[Tarislar]

Maybe so. I dunno. Lack counter spelling and you may not even make it through that 1 run It's dangerous to try and hedge your bets with the GM like that on certain skills.

True but if you come to the table w/o Counterspelling its like ?  Really ?  Well this might suck.
Come to the table w/o Spellcasting and its "WTF Man, you said you were bringing a Mage, not an Aspected-Conjurer!?!?!"

I agree with Tarlisar, with the added comment that arcana and assenssing are also must haves, with at least a few skill points. Although those 2 arent essential for a starting character.

All the skills in that middle list are stuff you "want" IMHO.
But each is a "flavor" type skill v/s the basic 2 that every full magician needs to be a full magician & not aspected to 1 or the other.
Those 2 (Splcst/Sum) are going to get used every game no matter what happens to you really.

[Demon_Bob]

Astral Combat becomes more useful if you do a lot of Astral Recon, and Run & Gun added an option for using Astral Combat vs materialized spirits, but it is still fairly limited.
Counter-spelling can be used to help protect your team members from your own AoE spells, so I tend to rank it high on the middle list.
My group uses assessing for astral perception, and having a poor perception in this game can be deadly.  Again with the astral recon thing.

For Sorcery Aspected Magicians ritual magic's watcher spirit allows for astral over watch, and watcher spirits can not be dispelled or banished.
Ritual magic also allows for wards other than mana lodges.  The only downfall is with this edition it counts as a known spell.
I can't find any listing for prices for ritual spells.  Does that mean that they only cost Karma?

[Flip]

i never put binding on shamen mages. most my mentor spirts run by gms have warned me its dis respectfull.  my wolf mentor guy got chewed out for onces binding a force 10 spirte we needid for a run.

One thing you can do for bindings is rather than try to force them into a binding, negotiate with the spirits you summon and do favors for them. Clean up a dirty lake, volunteer at an animal shelter.

I have a summoner (Human, Edge 8, Magic 6, Aspected) that was taught Hermetic by a free water spirit. While she doesn't have the religious reverence for spirits that shamans have, she sees them as complete equals. She spends half of her free non-run time doing favors for the spirits she has bound (One actually turned into a run she hired her crew for. They had to go 'convince' a mage that had bound a really ancient spirit to stop having it sustain his spells).