[ZeConster]

So quick question: is there any reason you think commlinks need to be able to run cyberprograms?

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

The issue, Senko, is that you are looking for proof in the books without taking into account all of the books.  That you're refusing to see Shadowrun as a living, breathing, and most importantly evolving world and game system, one which has always tried to stay 'two steps ahead' of where-ever modern tech happens to be at the time of that particular edition's initial publication.  Simply put, you aren't listening to the people who are telling you the in- and out-of-character reasons for 'the way things are' - and, worse, you're actively fighting both our advice and the direction of the game system itself.

In short, it appears that you're trolling, and that you're refusing to drink even when we've surrounded you with fresh, clean, tasty water.

The rules say that commlinks - which are equivalent to today's smartphones - cannot use what the books describe as 'common' programs.  Period; full stop.  They can for a short period of time (i.e. one test) if the person attempting it is really good, really lucky, and cobbles together a temporary suite that basically breaks down in moments under the strain, i.e. used a point of Edge.  However you explain that - whether it's new protocols, a hardware issue, a 'noise' issue, or the Devs waking up and saying, 'oh shit, we screwed up!!' - is up to you, but it's still the rules.

Now, if you want to houserule that smartphones can use a full-powered realtime-video-editing suite (which is what an Edit program includes), then you go right ahead - but you should let your players know that it's a houserule, not canon.

[Whiskeyjack]

I don't see what is hard to understand that you don't need the Browse program to browse the Matrix. Having it just makes it faster - and having it requires a deck. I don't know anything about specialized or professional search engines, so I assume that the Brows program is this, and not just the Google-in-Safari toolbar in an iPhone.

As has been stated, commlinks can be used for basically anything a smartphone can be used for. Clearly the hardware is the commlink and it runs software, however you don't need to buy this software separately. These...I'll call them "integrated programs" are kind of like modern-day apps, that you don't need to buy as they all come pre-loaded.

"Common" google searches don't even need to be completely diceless in this case - a commlink can do it at a baseline and no person requires any formal training to find a bakery or look up a product they find interesting or any of the infinite other things you can figure out just by googling. As commlinks have a Data Processing rating equal to their Device Rating, this allows you to do normal browsing on your commlink with a limit of your [Data Processing = Device Rating] which is pretty decent for the things a non-Matrix professional will need to do.

It is important to note that  the Browse program isn't needed literally to brows the Matrix. It just makes doing so faster (mechanical impact: "cuts the time for a Matrix Search action in half"). So in this instance, a commlink can do the kind of google searching you'd be able to do on your iPhone, it just will do it slower than a deck might. Which, yes, my iPhone will typically load things slower than my laptop does,s o it's not exactly unrealistic.

So looking at common programs, you're making commlinks too good for their value if you add them in. You're actively taking some niche protection away from deckers.

[Namikaze]

Senko,

It's your tables, your rules.  Not a lot of people here will agree with you, but some will.  It's not like you're breaking the fundamental basis of the world by allowing for resurrection or something.  With that said, I think you've reached your decision, and I appreciate that you did it while (eventually) listening to the advice of others.  Since you've reached your decision though, it might be best if we locked this thread and moved on to other topics.

[RHat]

I don't recall that, that is I recall the person making the argument here but i don't recall it in the book. Although i do recall a fair bit that would contradict it, where is this fact stated?

It's not "stated", nor does it need to be, because it's rationally obvious - any other conclusion requires that Attack, Sleaze, Sharing, RCC Noise Reduction, and Program Rating do not represent any kind of tax on processing power, which is fundamentally impossible.

[Senko]

@Zeconster
There's a number of reasons I think their not being able to run them makes no sense and I made this thread to try and figure out a justification for that or to get enough of an understanding to feel confortable house ruling it. Right now what I have is . . .

1) Programs are divided into two categories common and hacking. Decks can run both, RCC's can run common ones.

2) RCC's are described in the book as being more like commlinks than decks.

3) I can't buy the riggers are matrix specialists when they don't even need a point in computer, hardware, software, hacking, electronic warfare or cybercombat for their role yet they can use common programs.

4) Common programs do let of things that ordinary people not just deckers but ordinary everyday wage slaves could get a lot of use out of ... Editing, browsing, noise reduction (seriously look at the noise rules and tell me somone couldn't use a noise reducing program to keep their image linked AR glasses up in a mall).

5) Storm front mentions running programs on commlinks on the new matrix system using the new conmlink hardware.

6) Deckers are still vital for any hacking actions, cotrolling things in a firefight etc but this way someone else e.g. a hermetic mage could do the search they'd be doing anyway only quicker.

7) On a purely hardware level commlinks are described as having more than enough space (aside from RARE gm chosen exceptions) they'd need for any programs they may want to run and have the same data processing value as RCC's and decks.

Commlinks may have generic systems to do this stuff but they equally obviously don't have these specific ones or the metalink wouldn't hae 1/1/1 across the aboard and.its not like the 80 Nuyen program would replace a more expensive device. Because one it only gets a benefit in one specific area when its running that program and two the more expensive device can run the same programs and maintain its lead or be matched in that area while running a program to benefit irself elsewherr when its already better in that other area.

So I just don't see why they can't run common programs especially given the nature of those programs.

@Rhat
No its not rationally obvious otherwise there would be diferent dice for a renraku's data processing 3 to a scratch built junk's 3. Saying that its weaker because its a commlink is like saying a 2.6 quadcore processor on a smartphone is weaker than a 2.6 quadcore on a laptop. They are an abstract value for vague future tech but they're the same abstract value I.e. X not X and X - Y.

Even if what you where saying made sense because of decks transformable nature the others are either always dedicating enough processing power to equal that 3 or the deck is overclocking/ubderclocking/powering different modules/cards.

@Whiskeyjack
I'm not saying the comlinks can't do these things, I'm saying given the nature of the systems, the benefits of these programs and what the book says it makes no real sense for then not to be able to run these more programs instead of the generic ones they come prepackaged with. I'm not sure I agree with deckers losing niche protection. I will think about that though.

@Thewyrmorouborous
I dont recall seeing that just that decks could and then in another section RCCs could let me double check if my memorys playing up.

EDIT
Oj unless the rules not where I checked (possible) there is nothing saying thwy can't. The peogram section only talks about decks it doesnt even say they can run them just assumes. The rigger section says they share sone progrms with hackers and the connlink section just gives you some brief info ob what they are.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

You don't see because you won't see.  You're looking for written textual evidence for what's clearly implied just by the rules as written.  But that's okay; I'm pretty sure we're all done arguing.

Go have fun, man.  Your table.

[RHat]

@Rhat
No its not rationally obvious otherwise there would be diferent dice for a renraku's data processing 3 to a scratch built junk's 3. Saying that its weaker because its a commlink is like saying a 2.6 quadcore processor on a smartphone is weaker than a 2.6 quadcore on a laptop. They are an abstract value for vague future tech but they're the same abstract value I.e. X not X and X - Y.

Even if what you where saying made sense because of decks transformable nature the others are either always dedicating enough processing power to equal that 3 or the deck is overclocking/ubderclocking/powering different modules/cards.

You're missing the point - Data Processing is not the same thing as processing power and it is certainly not the specific processing power that you have; it's the resources available for or dedicated to processing data, as opposed to all the other things you might do with that processing power.  The commlink has precisely 3 things to dedicate its resources (including processing power) to: Device Rating, Data Processing, and Firewall.  RCCs and decks, meanwhile, have more and thus require more processing power to achieve the same ratings.

[SlowDeck]

Here's what the text actually says about RCCs (page 266):

"It can act like a commlink and has all the features of a commlink in addition to the cool drone stuff."

Can act like a commlink. Decks can also act like commlinks. But neither one is a commlink due to all of the extra hardware they have. In addition, RCCs can use hacking programs (Armor, a program suggested for riggers on page 269, is a hacking program). Also note that the list on page 269 does not say it is the complete list of what programs are shared.

But beyond that, the text talks about RCCs being able to use hacking programs, and even notes they use the same limit rules as cyberdecks.

But at the same time, you're trying to find a justification for commlinks to use common programs when, by RAW, they already come fully loaded with all of the software they need and, by RAW, their equipment cannot handle cyberprograms. Also note that, by RAW, programs made for RCCs do not work on cyberdecks. Nor can cyberdecks use RCC programs. The only explanation possible is hardware issues.

So, no, the text on RCCs doesn't reinforce your point. It goes to show that there is massive incompatibility between the three devices, despite how many features they share, and goes on further to show that commlinks really are just that limited.

[martinchaen]

Also, RCCs can run both common and hacking cyberprograms, as well as autosofts, according to the rules...

[Whiskeyjack]

2) RCC's are described in the book as being more like commlinks than decks.

I think you're looking at the RCCs being described as "more like commlinks" wayyyy wrong. A commlink is a smartphone. A deck is a very versatile and powerful computer. An RCC is like a commlink in that it doesn't have the versatility of function of a deck: decks can do pretty much anything with the Matrix and alter their internal attributes to optimize for the task they need; commlinks and RCCs cannot. But also consider an RCC is a platform designed to control and coordinate multiple separate pieces of unmanned hardware.

So, yes, an RCC is more specialized than a deck. And I don't think that our current technology that allows for remote piloting of Reaper drones is designed specifically to also provide a comprehensive browsing and hacking platform. But I also wouldn't say that the sensor consoles currently used to pilot UAVs is that much like a smartphone in terms of its power. An RCC is basically like our drone control suites, except capable of controlling several simultaneously rather than one. By contrast a commlink is a nice smartphone. I don't think that's a proper comparison.

RCCs can run common programs because, in effect, they are a bigger and more complex computer than a smartlink. But they are not near as complicated or versatile as a deck. Using an RCC like that is probably largely a waste of time (nice to have on occasion but nothing special) since the common programs are not that big a deal except for Edit.

Your points on riggers are off the point. Riggers aren't Matrix experts. Who claimed that?

Riggers aren’t deckers, but they aren’t completely inept in the world of electronic warfare.

Riggers are remote pilots who need to know enough to protect their drones from being hacked. They don't need to be expert hackers themselves and most lack the hardware to do that. The book says that riggers need to be good enough at things like EW to protect their flocks of drones and doesn't even mention trying to counter-hack a decker; on top of it if a drone gets hacked and RC'd a rigger just jumps into it and re-establishes control. Who claimed deckers weren't necessary?

OK I just went back and read the relevant stuff on RCCs. I am comfortable saying that you are being and have been rather intellectually dishonest in this thread regarding how RCCs are compared to commlinks and decks in the book. They're compared to both decks and commlinks, however you pretty much latched on to the commlink comparisons only.

A rigger command console, or RCC, is like a deck for controlling drones (or other vehicles and devices). It’s about the size of a briefcase. It can act like a commlink and has all the features of a commlink in addition to the cool drone stuff.

Along with all the standard features of a commlink, rigger command consoles have Noise Reduction and Sharing ratings that you set when you boot the console.

Rigger command consoles have the familiar Data Processing and Firewall ratings from both commlinks and cyberdecks, but they lean toward commlinks in their functionality since they are not designed for versatility and cannot be readjusted on the fly.

I am actually surprised you haven't said decks are like commlinks what with this:

A cyberdeck—usually just called a deck—is like a commlink with some extra features.

[ZeConster]

@Zeconster
There's a number of reasons I think their not being able to run them makes no sense and I made this thread to try and figure out a justification for that or to get enough of an understanding to feel confortable house ruling it.

I asked for a need, as in "what purpose would allowing commlinks to use cyberprograms serve?"

4) Common programs do let of things that ordinary people not just deckers but ordinary everyday wage slaves could get a lot of use out of ... Editing, browsing

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Commlinks already allow you to edit and browse, as people have spent the entire topic telling you.
Let me repeat that: even without cyberprograms, you can edit and browse on commlinks.

EDIT
Oj unless the rules not where I checked (possible) there is nothing saying thwy can't. The peogram section only talks about decks it doesnt even say they can run them just assumes. The rigger section says they share sone progrms with hackers and the connlink section just gives you some brief info ob what they are.

Try page 221.

A commlink is combination computer, smartphone, media player, passport, wallet, credit card, Matrix browser, chip reader, GPS navigator, digital camera, and portable gaming device. And possibly a few other things, if you’ve got a really nice one. It’s got all of the necessary software already loaded, but unlike a cyberdeck it has no space for cyberprograms or other hacking tools.

[Furious Trope]

I'm trying to avoid reading this whole thread to find a reference to where exactly SR5 core says commlinks can't.

Clearly, the consensus is the rules say no. From my skim, it's somewhat implied this is a no (Not listing it as a stat, common programs specifying deck, etc).

Is there some line I've missed?

[Whiskeyjack]

Page 221, quoted in the post above yours.

Page 222 states exactly what a commlink can be used for.

[Furious Trope]

Page 221, quoted in the post above yours.

Page 222 states exactly what a commlink can be used for.

Thank you.