[Triskavanski]

Most of the answers were "They can't do this because the rules say they can't do this" in different ways rather than actually trying to figure out a way to fix it and frankly that was just an attempt to let it all die down in truth I'm still not happy with them but its obvious I'm in the minority so I'm just walking away. Also no it wasn't nice to use my imagination even if it had been a viable explanation I'm hugely busy at work with only a few minutes here and there to grab free e.g. thinking about it driving home or while walking into town for lunch so I don't have the time to really sit down and work on this stuff. As it is I think I'm not going to have a job this time next year.

Yeah, I hate "Because the rules say so" as a reason why you can't do something fairly logically capable. I know sometimes it just has to happen for balance reasons, but there is usually a better way. Sometimes though, people tend to do a knee jerk reaction on what is "balanced"

Like if magic users can only speak in a Japanese accent. Because its in the rules. And if they spoke without one it would be too OP. (an extreme example, but its how I feel sometimes with some rules)

[Whiskeyjack]

I just find it dumb you need a thing that is both restricted and comes with illegal stuff, that really isn't any bigger or badder than the commlinks to be able to run a program that doesn't use Atttack/Sleeze and available to everyone, especially with things that most people would probably use a lot.

Keep in mind that the decks in the book are, for the most part, amped up and upgraded for serious Matrix professionals, including corp/military spiders and runner deckers.

Certainly there are much cheaper "civilian" decks that may not be as great with the illegal stuff, but have all the power needed for, say, the Horizon graphic artist wageslave to use Edit to create amazing AR movies or whatever. It's professional-level stuff, but all perfectly legal (and thus cheaper compared to the runner-decker type stuff more akin to mil spec computing terminals than even high-powered civilian PCs). Or maybe for civilian-level stuff all you need is your commlink and a way to see AR.

[Whiskeyjack]

1) Why are decks so much more expensive? Because of the specialized hardware you need to run attack/sleaze programs or jump your conciousness into a vehicle.
2) Why do the equivalent commlinks have better stats than the deck? Because those stats include the top end common programs that aren't standard on a deck.
3) Why can decks and consoles only run a few programs while commlinks are effectively running multiple ones at once? Because of their reconfigurable or specialized nature and the need for the programs to interact with those different configurations tie up processing power.
4) Why hasn't anyone protested the loss of their favorite programs? Because the programs the average person would use are still there its just the hacking/illegal ones that can't be done without specialized hardware under the new system.

1) Probably, yes. Decks are modular - their stats can be changed around. They're designed to run programs that can crack high-power security systems. Put another way in the metagame, look at how every archetype has costs. Sams have to afford lots of ware and gear to be competitive; mages need foci to be at the top of their game; mages and TMs both need karma to improve as well. It would be inappropriate for a primary archetype like decker to get away with spending 10k for everything he could possibly need when the other brig archetypes need to spend dozens or hundreds of thousands of nuyen to do the same in their field.
2) Because everybody probably wants their email to be secure, but not everybody needs the processing power of a deck, even for legal professional use. With AR, the commlink can probably replace a PC for most people. But those in professions that require a machine with high-processing, from advertisers to media etc, will want some sort of deck that can handle the upper end of programs. Also those better stats than a deck? The deck can be configured for those stats, and more. But don't compare the cheapest, crappiest deck to the best commlink. The latter will be excellent defensively and for most normal things a person will need, but will not be helpful when that person needs to perform even an easy hack.
3) I'd say because the kind of programs the commlink runs (read: free, by the rules) are not as powerful as the kind the deck uses (read: you pay for em). Again you're comparing instagram to photoshop.
4) Megacorps don't care. They make the rules, they changed the Matrix to suit them better. Evolve with it or be left behind. They don't care and are even more immune to "protests" than Exxon and Monsanto are today, especially on their own territory where they absolutely do not have to allow you to speak freely.

[Joush]

Basic summary:

Corporations were tired of all of the hackers, tired of the Matrix being free to use, and tired of not having control. So, one corporation rewrote all of the Matrix protocols and GOD declared it the new Matrix. Storm Front goes into how none of the programs from the old wireless Matrix work with the current one and how the hacking community had to rewrite all of their hacking software from the ground up (it's also somewhat implied that the need to rewrite all software wasn't limited to just the hacking software). It also goes into how the new wireless Matrix was intentionally designed to somewhat emulate the old wired Matrix.

And then, when the new Matrix went live, they rolled out automatic updates for all of the commlinks. So it's either not have any Matrix access at all, or use the current protocols.

Oh wow. I'd assumed that they did some kind of better explanation then that. It's sort of neat how the writer managed to combine an ignorance of business and technology together there. It's early to say so, as I haven't gone though that book, but this might be up there with the racism in 1st edition for the stupidest fluff in Shadowrun.

[SlowDeck]

Basic summary:

Corporations were tired of all of the hackers, tired of the Matrix being free to use, and tired of not having control. So, one corporation rewrote all of the Matrix protocols and GOD declared it the new Matrix. Storm Front goes into how none of the programs from the old wireless Matrix work with the current one and how the hacking community had to rewrite all of their hacking software from the ground up (it's also somewhat implied that the need to rewrite all software wasn't limited to just the hacking software). It also goes into how the new wireless Matrix was intentionally designed to somewhat emulate the old wired Matrix.

And then, when the new Matrix went live, they rolled out automatic updates for all of the commlinks. So it's either not have any Matrix access at all, or use the current protocols.

Oh wow. I'd assumed that they did some kind of better explanation then that. It's sort of neat how the writer managed to combine an ignorance of business and technology together there. It's early to say so, as I haven't gone though that book, but this might be up there with the racism in 1st edition for the stupidest fluff in Shadowrun.

Funnily enough, the group I'm playing face-to-face with had that exact thing to say about the 4E Matrix. Given what he's had to say, apparently Shadowrun companies have been utter geniuses compared to real companies. This is actually the first piece of fluff he's been able to accept as realistic.

That's part of why I call Shadowrun an optimistic setting.

[Whiskeyjack]

Oh wow. I'd assumed that they did some kind of better explanation then that. It's sort of neat how the writer managed to combine an ignorance of business and technology together there.

I wouldn't be too surprised that RPG freelance writers are neither cryptology nor business experts and that their fluff explanations do not come from a subject-matter-expert-level perspective. I'm always surprised when I see people on the forums who are apparently tech experts deriding the freelancers' methods for helping the new crunch come into compliance with historical, canon fluff, for not having their same industry knowledge/experience. It doesn't bother me that Catalyst doesn't hire cryptographers as their freelancers, since "knowledge that allows conformation to real world principles" isn't at the top of their priority list for people who can write about and flesh out the world.

[Furious Trope]

Oh wow. I'd assumed that they did some kind of better explanation then that. It's sort of neat how the writer managed to combine an ignorance of business and technology together there.

I wouldn't be too surprised that RPG freelance writers are neither cryptology nor business experts and that their fluff explanations do not come from a subject-matter-expert-level perspective. I'm always surprised when I see people on the forums who are apparently tech experts deriding the freelancers' methods for helping the new crunch come into compliance with historical, canon fluff, for not having their same industry knowledge/experience. It doesn't bother me that Catalyst doesn't hire cryptographers as their freelancers, since "knowledge that allows conformation to real world principles" isn't at the top of their priority list for people who can write about and flesh out the world.

I'm more entertained when I see those same people complain about the release rate.

Research takes time. Coordinated research takes longer.

Coordinated research subject to business pressure for an industry having nothing to do with the setting? Heh.

[Fedifensor]

The question that comes to mind when I compare commlinks to cyberdecks isn't "why can't commlinks run common cyberprograms?"...

Instead, I ask, "Why do all deckers have to be rich?"

Better hardware gives an incentive to upgrade, of course.  But even the wimpiest, bottom of the line cyberdeck costs 50k, and a passable midrange deck (the Microtronica Azteca 200) costs more than a permanent Low lifestyle.  That's before you buy a datajack, programs, various other cyberware or bioware that enhances your hacking skills, etc.

It's a strange disconnect, because I find it hard to believe there are that many SINless folks out there that have the resources to own a piece of hardware that costs more than a house.  Not to mention that that hardware is highly illegal, and incredibly fragile.  One bad run, and your deck is locked away in a Lone Star evidence room or fried from enemy IC.  Your standard gunbunny can lose all of his equipment and buy the minimum he needs to function for a few thousand nuyen.  Even riggers have an easier time replacing equipment than deckers.  It's one of the few things I didn't like about 5th edition.  4th may have made decking equipment too cheap, but I think 5th went too far in the other direction.

[Namikaze]

This has already been explained, but I think a lot of the confusion about this kind of topic comes from people familiar with 4th edition coming into 5th edition.  Those of us that remember the PDA rules from 1st, 2nd, and 3rd editions don't seem to be as bothered by the commlink/cyberprogram "issue."  Fact is the commlink is little more than a smart phone.  Even if it had a lot of processing power, a lot of it gets taken up by the applications that are already installed.  These applications (for all devices) are what makes up the composite scores of Firewall, Data Processing, Attack, Sleaze, Noise Reduction, and Sharing.  This is a really simple aggregation of a very complex topic, for a LOT of reasons that have been beaten with a stick by now.  So this topic is as dead as the horse that we've all been beating trying to explain this topic to people since day 1 of 5th edition's release.

On the optimistic side: I'm hopeful that Data Trails will contain rules for building and upgrading cyberdecks.  These rules might involve the heavy modification of commlinks as a base unit, thus giving clarity on this topic while providing some interesting options for poorer characters.

[Triskavanski]

The reason you don't make a 500 page document on a smartphone isn't because the smartphone lacks tha powers, but because a smartphone has a tiny little keyboard screen.

There were people in the past who made 1000 page documents on 500mb of ram. Now smartphones currently have 2 to 3 gb of ram. My computer at home had been running at 2gb of ram.

And honestly, a deck is little more than a smart phone tablet.

[SlowDeck]

I still say it's a hardware issue caused by the new protocols. Specifically, the new protocols require hardware that simply is beyond the capacity of a commlink to hold. That resolves the problem nicely and sets up a possibility for later equipment for modifying both commlinks and decks (and, maybe, cobbling a deck out of a commlink, some extra parts, and a lot of glue).

[Joush]

The reason you don't make a 500 page document on a smartphone isn't because the smartphone lacks tha powers, but because a smartphone has a tiny little keyboard screen.

There were people in the past who made 1000 page documents on 500mb of ram. Now smartphones currently have 2 to 3 gb of ram. My computer at home had been running at 2gb of ram.

And honestly, a deck is little more than a smart phone tablet.

Notably, the Fifty Shades of Grey books were apparently typed on a smartphone.

Oh, and that's nothing for processing power vs book length. A Song of Ice and Fire is written on a 386 with around 8 megs of ram.

[Senko]

Which is why I have such a problem with this. I mean how can you even call something a "common" program when the gear that runs it is (a) restricted, (b) costs per deck for the basic model enough to live on for nearly a year in comfort and for the (acceptable mid-range) enough to live on for life and (c) is apparently only used by the extremely wealthy who are tech savy enough to write their own programs? Where do baby deckers come from for that matter? I mean at 50k plus licensing no ones going to be buying a basic deck for the kid to play around on and develop their hacking/cyberwarfare skiills now are they? Maybe I wouldn't have as much of a problem if we had something in between but when I can stroll into JB Hi-Fi and see HTC One = $700 and Generic Laptop X = $400 there is a major disconnect in the concept especially given the decisions to do this where made while developing the game in the last few years. That's not "I'm not a business/tech expert" that's "I still use a landline and no computer" level.

Now maybe its made for balance reasons, maybe its made for flavour reasons because the designers felt decks where an integral part of the setting and frankly I don't care. I created this thread asking for help to create a fluff reason that would EXPLAIN why this world works this way when anyone who uses technology today is going to look at these design decisions and have the same issue today. I was hoping someone who is actually a tech expert could maybe explain a way to justify/explain this but all I got as I said was a bunch of "the rules say this" or "the decks are more powerful" when they aren't more powerful overall. That is deck A may be better than commlink B but commlink B has higher device rating, processing power, etc than deck C and you aren't going to convince me by saying its spread out more. That's like saying the Lenova G585 (2GB Ram, 2 core 1.48GHZ processor) can run programs the Samsung Galaxy S5 (2GB Ram, Quadcore 2.5GHZ processor) because its more versatile even though they have the exact same RAM and the phone has better processing power (plus in shadowrun I'm not limited to touch screen and a mini-keypad but can call up a virtual full scale keyboard and all sorts of other options).

[Whiskeyjack]

A basic deck is not the same as the basic thing a normal computer consumer is going to buy. For 99% of consumer needs, from personal spreadsheets to video games to writing book reports, a commlink + AR is going to be all you need.

Decks are not the analogue to consumer PCs. (Commlinks aren't really either, but they're closer).

I think this has been said several times and i'm not sure exactly what is hard to get about that.

[Senko]

Which is the whole problem. A deck isn't a computer (for starters it comes with a free illegal hot sim mod) and everyone is using commlinks as computers but they aren't a computer enough computer to use a common computing program even though they should be and I can't see anyway to justify that.