[SlowDeck]

Senko, the reason why a computer expert, and even those of us with knowledge of computers, can't tell you anything other than what the rules say is because this isn't our technology; we don't even have a baseline for if their computers still use binary. Without any idea of how the systems actually work, all we can do is use what are at best guesses. As Whiskeyjack points out, these are not even really tech pieces that can compare to tech we have in real life.

Thus, I guess it's a hardware issue caused by the new protocols. Why? Because it's an easy handwave and it's one that opens up all kinds of future expansion on.

[RHat]

I questioned, and continued to question, why you assume that Device Rating describes a specific processing level - I don't find that assumption justified.

Specifically, I would suggest that Device Rating actually describes the relationship between the resources the system has available and the sort of demands that are placed upon it - and since a commlink has much less demand placed upon it, it can more directly dedicated towards the things represented by Device Rating, Data Processing, and Firewall, while a deck has to dedicate it's resources towards Device Rating, Data Processing, Firewall, Attack, Sleaze, and its Program Rating.  An RCC must dedicate those resources towards its Device Rating, Data Processing, Firewall, Sharing, Program Rating, and various other functions.

Thus, that DR4 Deck actually does have more processing power than a DR 6 commlink; the relationship is similar to that of a commlink versus a proper computer.

[Whiskeyjack]

Which is the whole problem. A deck isn't a computer (for starters it comes with a free illegal hot sim mod) and everyone is using commlinks as computers but they aren't a computer enough computer to use a common computing program even though they should be and I can't see anyway to justify that.

Can your off-the-shelf Dell run the kind of software needed to render the CGI for, say, the Avatar movie? For PS4/XBox Next games?

This is what I'm talking about. There are basically 3 tiers of users in Shadowrun.

1) Normal people. They check email, shop online, maybe need a good word processor or spreadsheet program, play video games, watch movies, etc. IMO they would do most of this on a commlink - cheap, with basic-level programs. The equivalent of the MS Office Suite and apps available on modern smartphones.
2) Computer professionals. They need something more than a commlink to create AR/VR advertising and media (airbrushing photos, rendering scenes in movies, creating brand-new high-end video games). They need some undefined piece of gear between a commlink and a full hot-sim deck. Something that can run high-end programs but doesn't need to break through encryption. Think the software used by professional film and sound editors and video game companies. Usually this equipment will be provided by their job.
3) Hacker-level users. This includes corporate and military spiders as well as shadowrunners. They use decks pretty much exclusively, whether for legal or illegal purposes, because they need to break into (or defend) heavily encrypted or protected areas.

I think you're mostly asking about what the equipment group 2 would need. I have no idea. It's somewhere between a commlink and a deck. The game presumes that a runner who wants to do that stuff will be a decker and just own a deck.

[RHat]

Which is the whole problem. A deck isn't a computer (for starters it comes with a free illegal hot sim mod) and everyone is using commlinks as computers but they aren't a computer enough computer to use a common computing program even though they should be and I can't see anyway to justify that.

Can your off-the-shelf Dell run the kind of software needed to render the CGI for, say, the Avatar movie? For PS4/XBox Next games?

This is what I'm talking about. There are basically 3 tiers of users in Shadowrun.

1) Normal people. They check email, shop online, maybe need a good word processor or spreadsheet program, play video games, watch movies, etc. IMO they would do most of this on a commlink - cheap, with basic-level programs. The equivalent of the MS Office Suite and apps available on modern smartphones.
2) Computer professionals. They need something more than a commlink to create AR/VR advertising and media (airbrushing photos, rendering scenes in movies, creating brand-new high-end video games). They need some undefined piece of gear between a commlink and a full hot-sim deck. Something that can run high-end programs but doesn't need to break through encryption. Think the software used by professional film and sound editors and video game companies. Usually this equipment will be provided by their job.
3) Hacker-level users. This includes corporate and military spiders as well as shadowrunners. They use decks pretty much exclusively, whether for legal or illegal purposes, because they need to break into (or defend) heavily encrypted or protected areas.

I think you're mostly asking about what the equipment group 2 would need. I have no idea. It's somewhere between a commlink and a deck. The game presumes that a runner who wants to do that stuff will be a decker and just own a deck.

Though an RCC, given it's ability to run cyberprograms, is cheaper option for such capability.

[Triskavanski]

Well, we the people demand commdecks then.

[Namikaze]

Which is the whole problem. A deck isn't a computer (for starters it comes with a free illegal hot sim mod) and everyone is using commlinks as computers but they aren't a computer enough computer to use a common computing program even though they should be and I can't see anyway to justify that.

This topic was discussed in a thread about what other technology exists for computing.  It was determined that terminals and such would likely still exist in some capacity, but that (cold) VR and AR workspaces were more likely the standard.  With the proliferation of trodes, datajacks, and cloud computing, commlinks are literally all you would need for probably 90% of the computing that a user does on a daily basis.  However, the topic did come up that nexi would likely still need to exist, and of course there are potential security issues when people use their commlinks for 90% of their work.  So the consensus was that we'd have to wait for Data Trails to come out in order to get more information.  In fact, this is identical to the way that computing has been handled in all other versions of Shadowrun.  The core book always gives you what you need, but not what you want.  The supplemental book provides what you want, not what you need.

[Senko]

@Slowdeck
I know, but they're supposed to be semi-related so if someone can provide an explanation why this could happen in the real world it could be carried over.

@Rhat
I've been assuming device rating = processing power because of the section on page 234 about devices specifically "A device is any wireless device in the real world." it includes commlinks in the listing of what counts as a device. Then it goes on to say "They also have 3 ratings: A device rating and two of the Matrix attributes, Data Processing and Firewall. For most devices, the Matrix attributes are the same as the device rating.". Now I suppose a commlink could have a device rating of 3 and a processing power of 1 but without programs to account for that (the cause of this debate) that doesn't make much sense compared to assuming device rating 3 = processing power and firewall 3 and that they're 3 different things dealing with different aspects of the device in question. However as noted in that section they can be different so for example a security concious individual had a Renraku sensai with the firewall program they could have . . .

Device Rating: 3
Processing Power: 3
and
Firewall: 5

giving them a bit better protection against those nasty, nasty deckers for a mere 80 nuyen more as opposed to the 2,000 more for a Herme's Ikon.

@ Whiskey Jack, Rhat and Triskavanski
Sort of . . . I still can't see why a commlink can't run a common program but RCC's would work as a mid-tier thing if it weren't for the fact their even bigger than a deck (presumably because of the drone control stuff). I really would prefer more of a . . .

TIER 1
Regular people using commlinks for all their day to day functions from browsing the web to high level CGI graphics manipulations with the level of what they need relating to the commlink. E.g. a metalink 1/1/1 can't handle much more than the basics and if you want to do heavy video editing or the like you need the farlight Caliban at 7/7/7. Afterall the caliban at 8k is almost two months living expenses at the middle class range. However they can run common programs to devote a considerable amount of their power in a given area e.g running the toolbox program to maximize memory processing giving you a +1 to your data processing attribute and allowing the kids to run slightly better games than they would otherwise.

Tier 2
Riggers paying more for their much larger RCC's in order to have the dedicated hardware to allow a metahuman-inhuman interface e.g. interpreting their desire to run faster into accelerating the car. Can run normal programs + interface with vehicles/buildings etc.

Tier 3
Deckers either legitimate or illegal who need dedicated hardware allowing them access to the attack/sleaze options and the only group who in addition to common prgrams can run hacker ones and who have to pay signicantly more for their gear.

I mean seriously look at the description of the editing program . . .

Edit: THis program makes editing easier with a smart interface that learns you style and can even give you suggestions. Add 2 to the data processing limit for any edit tests made while this is running.

How is that not something a person would want running on their commlink? For that matter how is that open to abuse? It doesn't let you access something you shouldn't, it doesn't let you use it for non-editing functions. It just gives you a nice +2 for when your writing up your notes for the coming meeting, creating an AR add, icon, etc.

Same with browse . . .

Browse: This handy broswer and search engine cuts the time for a matrix search action in half.

Basically you find the entries on X in less time giving you more time to do other things. A decker is still going to be better at you but they can now spend their time sleazing their way into the banks file systems and editing the correct things there while your doing a general matrix search to help in your disguises on entering. For the non-criminally inclined digging up information on that ancient composer Barthaven for the kids history report.

@Namikaze
Fine, fair enough but considering how long we're likely to be waiting for that lets try and come up with some justification for the now.

[SlowDeck]

Well, the protocols issue being hardware related actually is something that comes up in real life. Items such as dongles, USB authenticators, and similar tech all requires your computer have the right components; despite the fact your old computer may still be able to run the program, they can easily lack the necessary kind of plug-in to operate with the new authentication. It's also a pretty massive issue with the internet itself; there are separate communication protocols for wired and wireless systems, and you require a device with the right equipment to even receive the signals for the protocols to be useful.

It also comes up a lot with computer games. It doesn't matter the software; if your computer doesn't have the hardware to render the game, the fact it has eight thousand times the processing power needed is not doing you any good.

Either one of those could be the issue that commlinks are running into. Notably, both of those issues (if they are the issue) are fixable and it would be easy to include rules in Data Trails to fix them.

[Namikaze]

@Namikaze
Fine, fair enough but considering how long we're likely to be waiting for that lets try and come up with some justification for the now.

Thing is, we've discussed this topic to death.  There's no explanation that makes everyone happy.  And the fact is, there won't ever be an explanation that makes everyone happy.  As nice as it would be to make sense out of this futuristic technology, it has no real-world equivalency that can be explained or even used as a baseline.  The developers do their best to try to predict what will happen, but they can't possibly predict how it happens.  We have AR right now, in our real world, on my cell phone.  This is a good 40 years before the Awakening, and about 50 years prior to Shadowrun 1st edition's timeline.  Why didn't 1st edition have AR?  Because the devs couldn't have predicted it.

This topic is best discussed when there aren't any references made to Shadowrun.  The reason being, that Shadowrun has no basis for making the assumption that commlinks will exist, let alone how they will work.  What's a better, more rational topic of discussion is to talk about what could have lead to the Matrix in the first place.  How do we get our current technology to the first stages of the Matrix, and how do we make it better than that, improve on it in such a way that everyone can use it and no one can exploit it for evil.  Those are the questions that we should be asking, since those are questions that might possibly someday have a satisfactory answer.  These kinds of questions about futuristic technology are right up there with asking how magic works, because that's what it is.  It's technological magic.

[Senko]

Problem being its technological magic with gaping plotholes you can drive a truck through. Its not just it does this because its magic but it does this because magic and makes sense by its own rules.

Also I thought the awakening happened in 2012? Given the huge riots, bombings, dragon attacks, bug attacks, devolution of governments, lose of technical research, new avenues of research I can see technology developing in different ways some faster, some slower what as I said I have a problem with is things that worked one way and now suddenly don't without any real explanation even though the rules would seem to support them working the original way and I can't even see a legitimate balance reason to change them.

[RHat]

@Rhat
I've been assuming device rating = processing power because of the section on page 234 about devices specifically "A device is any wireless device in the real world." it includes commlinks in the listing of what counts as a device. Then it goes on to say "They also have 3 ratings: A device rating and two of the Matrix attributes, Data Processing and Firewall. For most devices, the Matrix attributes are the same as the device rating.". Now I suppose a commlink could have a device rating of 3 and a processing power of 1 but without programs to account for that (the cause of this debate) that doesn't make much sense compared to assuming device rating 3 = processing power and firewall 3 and that they're 3 different things dealing with different aspects of the device in question. However as noted in that section they can be different so for example a security concious individual had a Renraku sensai with the firewall program they could have . . .

Device Rating: 3
Processing Power: 3
and
Firewall: 5

giving them a bit better protection against those nasty, nasty deckers for a mere 80 nuyen more as opposed to the 2,000 more for a Herme's Ikon.

You're somewhat missing my point - I'll break it down a bit more: I'm suggesting that Data Processing isn't processing power, but rather the portion of the devices resources that can be put towards crunching data; these are two very different things.

[Joush]

You've pretty much got to go Doctor Strangelove, or how I learned to stop worrying and love 5th edition, if you want to make peace with this.

There's no logical reason, in setting, for the changes to how things work. Trolls are much slower now, comlinks are no longer general computing devices but are heavily restricted in what they can do by arbitrary rules and of course, cybernetics that were installed in 2061 now need wireless to function, despite not being built with any wireless capability and not requiring it for 13 years.

And that's just the changes. It leaves aside the rules that are just stupid.

@Rhat
I've been assuming device rating = processing power because of the section on page 234 about devices specifically "A device is any wireless device in the real world." it includes commlinks in the listing of what counts as a device. Then it goes on to say "They also have 3 ratings: A device rating and two of the Matrix attributes, Data Processing and Firewall. For most devices, the Matrix attributes are the same as the device rating.". Now I suppose a commlink could have a device rating of 3 and a processing power of 1 but without programs to account for that (the cause of this debate) that doesn't make much sense compared to assuming device rating 3 = processing power and firewall 3 and that they're 3 different things dealing with different aspects of the device in question. However as noted in that section they can be different so for example a security concious individual had a Renraku sensai with the firewall program they could have . . .

Device Rating: 3
Processing Power: 3
and
Firewall: 5

giving them a bit better protection against those nasty, nasty deckers for a mere 80 nuyen more as opposed to the 2,000 more for a Herme's Ikon.

You're somewhat missing my point - I'll break it down a bit more: I'm suggesting that Data Processing isn't processing power, but rather the portion of the devices resources that can be put towards crunching data; these are two very different things.

So Data Processing becomes totally arbitrary and means something else for every device, requiring it be defined for each device independently of each other?

[Senko]

It looks that way as I said the book says a devices processing power is equal to its device rating but a data processing value of 3 would be the same whether its for the Renraku Sensai (device rating 3, data processing 3, firewall 3), a Radio Shack Remote Controller (Device Rating 2, Data Processing 3, Firewall 3) or a Microeck Summit (4/3/3/2 with one of the 3's in processing) or you'd be rolling different dice each time Rhat. That is I edit a file with my Renraku and roll 3 dice, with my control rig I roll 2 dice and with the Microdeck 8 (for examples sake) and we don't. A data processing of 3 is = to 3 dice ALWAYS.

I know I'm harping on this but its the difference between commlinks not being able to hack (doesn't make sense for the device in real world terms but does in game terms because its lacking vital pieces of hardware) and a commlink not being able to run a fairly straightforward editing program (because it says so and the only way you can make it work is if you houserule what the book says to not mean what the books says in which case you may as well houserule them to be able to run common programs).

Which is what I'm just going to do I refuse to accept "because the rules say so" as an explanation when I can't see a balance reason for those rules to exist in the first place and since according to Namikaze no one's even been able to come up with a fluff reason to justify this much less a crunch one I'm just going to houserule commlinks can runn common programs.

[Joush]

It looks that way as I said the book says a devices processing power is equal to its device rating but a data processing value of 3 would be the same whether its for the Renraku Sensai (device rating 3, data processing 3, firewall 3), a Radio Shack Remote Controller (Device Rating 2, Data Processing 3, Firewall 3) or a Microeck Summit (4/3/3/2 with one of the 3's in processing) or you'd be rolling different dice each time Rhat. That is I edit a file with my Renraku and roll 3 dice, with my control rig I roll 2 dice and with the Microdeck 8 (for examples sake) and we don't. A data processing of 3 is = to 3 dice ALWAYS.

I know I'm harping on this but its the difference between commlinks not being able to hack (doesn't make sense for the device in real world terms but does in game terms because its lacking vital pieces of hardware) and a commlink not being able to run a fairly straightforward editing program (because it says so and the only way you can make it work is if you houserule what the book says to not mean what the books says in which case you may as well houserule them to be able to run common programs).

Which is what I'm just going to do I refuse to accept "because the rules say so" as an explanation when I can't see a balance reason for those rules to exist in the first place and since according to Namikaze no one's even been able to come up with a fluff reason to justify this much less a crunch one I'm just going to houserule commlinks can runn common programs.

If you'd like me to suggest a simpler house rule just _{play 4th edition instead.}

It's worth it just for Chummer, really.

[SlowDeck]

Senko, actually, I think I have the resolution. I considered the possibility the fluff may hold an answer in a sentence and did some digging. Here's what I came up with:

"It’s got all of the necessary software already loaded, but unlike a cyberdeck it has no space for cyberprograms or other hacking tools."

That's from page 221. It notes, in the prior part of the paragraph, everything a commlink can do. And this is what is said about cyberprograms:

"Programs (technically cybeprograms if they’re for the Matrix) are files you can run on your deck. While a program is running, it makes your deck better or gives you more utility."

From page 243.

So, here's what it looks like: Fluff-wise, everything listed as a program in the core rulebook is specifically designed to work on the hardware of a deck. But, also, commlinks don't have room for this because they already come with the necessary software.

I suggest ruling instead that a commlink already has the equivalent of every common program except Configurator (it's useless for commlinks) for free.