[Senko]

Or the hardware could be a drone/human interface and attack/sleaze hardware respectively

[RHat]

Or the hardware could be a drone/human interface and attack/sleaze hardware respectively

Possible, sure, but doesn't fit the facts as well.

[ZeConster]

This topic is still going? One would think that the SR5 mechanics would offer enough illustration that 5th Edition programs are different from 4th Edition programs:
In 4th, you'd roll Skill + [Program Rating], where your commlink quality limited the Program Rating; so how good you were was determined by how skilled you were and how good the program you were using was.
In 5th, you roll Skill + [Logic/Intuition/Willpower/Resonance]: programs no longer do half the work for you, they just assist you by increasing your Limit, giving defense and damage soak dice, or giving various little bonuses.
That is a pretty big change to how programs work, and more than enough to justify 5th Edition commlinks being different from 4th Edition commlinks.

[Senko]

Actually the topics gotten kind of derailed considering I created it to try and work out a way to justify the way commlinks cant run common programs from an ingame perspective but i gave up on that a page ago and with no actual balance reason to keep it I'll be houseruling they can.

[martinchaen]

The balance reason is there, you even mentioned it yourself. An 80 nuyen program totally replacing a 2000 piece of hardware is enough of a reason, I should think.

If you do house rule it, just make sure you understand the implications. And really, the crux of your argument seems to have been Edit; this won't give you any benefit because you'll never need to actually roll Edit File on a file you own...

[Whiskeyjack]

If you'd like me to suggest a simpler house rule just _{play 4th edition instead.}

The 4th ed Matrix mechanics are ****ing terrible.

Asking why "trolls run slower than they did 5 years ago" is trying to find a fluff explanation for crunch. There isn't one and there's no point reading into it. It's a pure rule change with no tie to the IC or the setting (unlike the Matrix change). This kind of rule change happens all the time when games put out a new edition and existing old rules are altered. It's just like asking "a few years ago recoil wasn't near as bad for my same gun." There's a pure OOC reason for the change with no IC reason. Not a big deal.

Actually the topics gotten kind of derailed considering I created it to try and work out a way to justify the way commlinks cant run common programs from an ingame perspective but i gave up on that a page ago and with no actual balance reason to keep it I'll be houseruling they can.

Look if you refuse to read the in-setting reasoning for it that has been cited time and again (Storm Front), there is absolutely zero reason to keep engaging you on the subject or suggesting you actually read it. You may not like the canonical answers provided, but they have been provided. If you don't like them, fine, but you're not going to get a more updated answer to "why is this the case, in-setting" than the ones already provided by the canon.

[Joush]

People keep saying 4th ed matrix was awful, but it worked well enough for what it was without just being recolored magic.

As to the bit about trolls, it was really just an example of arbitrary and unnecessary changes in SR5 that suggest the writer did not understand the previous rules or seriously consider the impact of the new ones. Trolls and dwarves, for some reason, now move at the same pace, something that is hard to logically envision when trolls are supposed to be eight and a half feet tall.

[ZeConster]

People keep saying 4th ed matrix was awful, but it worked well enough for what it was without just being recolored magic.

I remember reading horror stories about how if you involved the Matrix in a run, it was basically 2 hours of the decker doing stuff while everyone else twiddled their thumbs.

[Whiskeyjack]

People keep saying 4th ed matrix was awful, but it worked well enough for what it was without just being recolored magic.

I'm happy with "Matrix = recolored magic" for the very simple reason that resolution of Matrix tasks seems to go much quicker and the rules are simpler in this edition. And Logic actually matters to hacking rolls where it wasn't a factor at all before.

Furthermore, quicker Matrix task resolution means that non-decker players are sitting around with thumbs up their asses for a shorter period of time than in 4th.

The game's playability and minimizing non-matrix-players' inability-to-play time is of paramount importance to me above and beyond understanding why certain fluff changed from one edition to another and why it might be considered "unrealistic."

I remember reading horror stories about how if you involved the Matrix in a run, it was basically 2 hours of the decker doing stuff while everyone else twiddled their thumbs.

That was my lived experience in 4th, yes. And as the guy who usually played a hacker or technomancer: it wasn't even any fun for me and the GM to be doing that for 2 hours. It was tedious. I don't know why we insisted on continuing to involve the Matrix. I guess to stay true to the setting, but it wasn't enjoyable. The 20th Anniversary made some of it better, but not by much.

I can only imagine what it was like for the other players. Usually they just ordered and went to pick up the pizzas when it was time for me and the GM to do Matrix legwork. When middle-of-run hacking came up the smokers usually went outside for a cigarette. Because it wasn't even fun to watch, let alone to play. Astral plane stuff would be similar if it was anywhere near as complicated; thankfully it isn't.

[Joush]

Yeah, 4th edition Matrix did have a lot of flaws. Even now, however, it's still a kazdu trap of GMing. Make sure that if running a game you don't throw in too much or too little for the hacker to do, because they still don't interact with the same sectors as everyone else when performing common hacking task like gaining access, disabling alarms or collecting data. Give them a few chances to hack  and put their name on the list for the nightclub where they need to get in for Plot Reasons, but don't make the whole information gathering and legwork phase online.

As far as combat hacking*, I don't care much for it, mostly because it's vastly more dangerous for NPCs then it is for PCs. An NPC it doesn't matter much if they get cyberware bricked or ruined, it's a combat debuff that is only relevant as long as the NPC is in the game. For a PC, the long term effects and the threat of combat hacking force changes in behavior or just changes character builds. (The value of a lot of cyberware is greatly reduced to many players by the new rules.)

*Hacking in physical combat, that is.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

... wow.  Not only is Senko still not getting it, and complaining that nobody's giving him reasons (which we have) or explanations (which we have) or concepts which explain the 'conversion' of 4th to 5th (which we have), but he's managed to pull more of his kindred out of the woodwork??

The disconnect is that you're reading 4th Edition as though it were the start of Shadowrun; it wasn't, and it ain't.  The issue is that all the things you're talking and complaining about - whether that's bought-off-the-shelf commlinks and programs from 4th that can no longer do what a top-notch decker from 1st-3rd could do (used to be the only ones who could, and once again are), or the fact that in 4e, trolls are mysteriously slow (when in fact before 4e they were never fast) is easily explained out of game as being the developers and writers going 'okay, yeah, sorry, we screwed up, let's get the game back on track' and explained in-game by the fluff you've already been given.

If you're going to run a game, and if you insist on not taking the rules as the rules and the fluff as the fluff, then Senko, you are gonna have to either work it out yourself despite your terrible, terrible work load, or else you're going to have to actually listen to the people who are giving you several Very Reasonable Explanations and not working so goddamn hard at spouting crocodile tears and fighting them.  Or you can do all the work to go back and get an understanding of the editions that existed before 4th, the Shadowrun world as it existed before 4th edition, and come to grips with the world as it's been described before your own personal 1e.

[Senko]

Hmmmmm did you miss my post saying I've not played ANY previous editions or my many posts saying its not the change from 4th to 5th but rather the lack of an internaly coherent reason for why commlinks can't run COMMON programs where RCCS can even though they cost about the same and have similar stats for money value, or perhaps the fact the book says they have all the space youd need yo run any programs you want? But still lets take a quick look at the "reasons given for this shall we?

1) It's the rules. Well um yes but its a rule that makes no sense to me so I'm trying and failing to figure out a way to justify it.

2) Read storm front. Not a whole let of help telling me to track down a book that deals with the conversion from 4th to 5th but sure u could track and buy something that might not do any good to someone who hasn't played 4th.

3) They don't have the space. Directly contradicted by the inbook text.

4) They don't have the processing power. Again contradicted this time by the ingame rules unless you start houseruling things.

5) Only decks can run programs. So can RCCS which the book states are more like commlinks than decks.

6) It would unbalance things. Yet I can spend 1.4k on a briefcase sized RCC and get the benefits of a commlink able to run programs so again why can't a regular commlink do that.

7) They're already running them all. No otherwise the metalink wouldnt have a 1 for it's data processing all the time.

So I've had really little to indicate a valid ingame reason for commlonks not running programs and again I HAVEN'T PLAYED 4th edition. My problem with this is as someone new to the setting and the others "coming out of the woodwork" as you put it have a similar problem with a rule that makes no sense from a balance or ingame sense unless you handwae it as this is a rule because this is a rule. I've had that before and while I can accept it if its required from a balance standpoint this doesnt even seem to do that.

[Michael Chandra]

The best chargen RCC has DR 5, 5 DP, 6 Firewall is and is 66k or 68k (depending on whether you believe the German book got it right). The best commlink at chargen has 6 DP and 6 Firewall for 5k nuyen. That is NOT similar stats for money value. The 1.4k RCC has only 3 DP and 2 Firewall, which cyberprograms can only boost to 4/3, so it's inferior to the 6/6 commlink.

8k RCC: 4/4 and 1 extra program through Virtual Machine max. 8k commlink: 7/7. If you really want the cyberprograms advantages that bad, just grab that cheap RCC, and accept that you're easier hacked.

[Elektrycerze3]

I'm sure I'm going to regret trying to offer an explanation, but here we go.

Senko, try viewing it this way:

Commlinks are Iphones and Decks (and RCCs) are Android devices.

Commlinks have all the hardware to run "common" programs, but corporate overlords made sure they can't.

It is detailed in Storm Front, which is a wonderful read for anyone coming to SR, not just those who played SR4 before. As the SF stands, Corporations overhauled the whole of the Matrix and even the best hackers in the world didn't manage to crack the new system in full - game it somewhat, sure, but not crack.

So the common user can't install any cyberprograms (the ones listed as cyberprograms in the core) simply because their devices are "locked" like apple devices.

I reckon we will see rules for jail-breaking commlinks in the upcoming Matrix book. After all, there is an example in fluff and the whole Edge-hacking loophole.

But what do we say to the missing rules of the new edition, like drone modding and deck upgrades? Not today =P

[ZeConster]

Hmmmmm did you miss my post saying I've not played ANY previous editions or my many posts saying its not the change from 4th to 5th but rather the lack of an internaly coherent reason for why commlinks can't run COMMON programs where RCCS can even though they cost about the same and have similar stats for money value, or perhaps the fact the book says they have all the space youd need yo run any programs you want?

So you're demanding an explanation as to why your smartphone, which already runs the software you need to browse the matrix and edit files and do all those legal actions, and which can in fact run malicious code if you spend a point of Edge to remove the 'limit' of 0 on Sleaze and Attack for a single action, can't run the same specialized software (which only increases your potential) that a device specially designed to control murder machines can?