[DigitalZombie]

*Didnt read the whole thread

I too find it odd that links cant run programs, I can see that from a game balance point of view, they shouldnt be able to it, because of their relative high rating/firewall for low cost.
But if the non-decking players feel a bit cheated and left out on the matrix part, it would be relatively easy to houserule something that would give the players a few more choices regarding links and matrix, for instance:

commlink          device rating        common use programs
Meta link                     1                                  0, just be glad that it can show you the time
emperor                      1                                  1
sensei                         2                                  1
elite                            3                                  2
ikon                            4                                  2
avalon                         5                                  3
caliban                        6                                  3

(every link after the meta link, has had their device rating reduced by 1 (and ½ matrix condition monitor)as a tradeoff, being able to run programs.
While the majority of commlinks have their response and firewall reduced, most of them can run encryption and toolbox at the same time, making up for it.

[SlowDeck]

Trust me, read the last couple pages of comments. Then read Storm Front. Those all spell out why.

If you want the quick summary, it's this:

The megacorps didn't want it them to be able to anymore and changed the Matrix so they can't.

[DigitalZombie]

Haha nah, I´ll be fine without reading that
This subject hasnt been up in my group yet, and I have no real preference one way or the other. While I think its odd from a gamemechanic point of view they cant run those programs, its a lot easier for non-hackers to not worry about those things.
My earlier post was merely a suggestion for those guys not satisfied with the current rules and the megacorporations choice of matrix security design. Take it or leave it .
Besides, Im certain the Corps will decide otherwise in a future sourcebook, and give link more options

[Aranador]

Heck - it is even simpler.  Commlinks are already running the highest versions of the relevant functions they can.  Adding a second installation of word to your computer doesn't make its word processing any better - it just chews up a bit of HDD space and makes Microsoft happy that they sold another licence.

[Senko]

I'm trying to get out of this thread considering the virulent hatred of the idea others have shown but I have to repeat storm front DOESN'T explain a thing. What it says is that the new protocols invalidated ALL the programs on everything commlinks, decks etc and that they needed to be either refined or dug up out of storage it in fact had a brief reference to the new hardware commlinks running programs.

However Aranador I just wanted to say I could have worked with that explanation if it weren't for things like the metalink that have stats lower than the programs would account for.

[ZeConster]

I'm trying to get out of this thread considering the virulent hatred of the idea others have shown

Is that why you haven't bothered answering my question as to why you think commlinks need to be able to use cyberprograms?

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

"I'm a XBox One.  I'm a top of the line gaming system; I kick ass!!  But dammit, the internet protocols have just been all switched over to Apple protocols.  I sure can run the programs designed for me, on my own private system, really well, but when I try to do things on the interw3bz I can barely do anything at all."

[SlowDeck]

Haha nah, I´ll be fine without reading that
This subject hasnt been up in my group yet, and I have no real preference one way or the other. While I think its odd from a gamemechanic point of view they cant run those programs, its a lot easier for non-hackers to not worry about those things.
My earlier post was merely a suggestion for those guys not satisfied with the current rules and the megacorporations choice of matrix security design. Take it or leave it .
Besides, Im certain the Corps will decide otherwise in a future sourcebook, and give link more options

From written text, they already have all of the programs they need and are maxed out on their hardware capacity for running programs. And in this edition, programs are platform dependent; a program made for a RCC won't work on a cyberdeck and vice versa, even if it's pretty much exactly the same program. Commlinks are simply not set up with the hardware the current programs require.

[incrdbil]

It seems plain to me that Comlinks do have software that allow them to do common, non-hecking functions. However, lacking the power and resources of a cyberdeck, and the specialized hardware that simply isn't legal to own or find in such limited devices, the com-link versions of these common programs give you know bonus dice.  The reason to have the comlink is at least you can do that, and, after all, the comlink is a communications device first, not a dedicated programmers tool.

You just want to do common programming actions, legal and not of a complex nature, your comlink lets you do that. You want to use decking equivalent cyber programs, or do those common  legal tasks even better using superior, start of the art programs? Buy a cyberdeck.

Using cyberprograms is the realm of decking. Leave it there.  Its as intrusive on a characters role as expecting the knowledge skill of magic to allow a mundane to participate in ritual magic.

there, its spelled out in the rules, supported throughout the text, and has form roots in protecting character roles.  I haven't seen anything presented in the entire thread that supports a com-link acting in such a role without a skewed, or out of context quotation.

Now, at your table, its your game. If as a GM you decide this is best for your game, go for it. No one here is saying you can't do that. But if your assentation is that the rules as written do, or the source material supports your claim, well, you are wrong.

Some general advice applicable to any game system. When you find yourself debating a rule, or making some claim about how it should really apply, and after thorough discussion, you have convinced no one, had none of your cited evidence hold up in contextual examination, save yourself time,  say 'well, I'm going to house rule it different, because I like it better this way" and move on. You don't win, or impress anyone simply by out-enduring everyone else and refusing to listen.

(I'm thinking of another thread that got even more ridiculous, where citations to dictionary definitions had to be used because someone couldn't grasp that sleep is a form of unconsciousness.) Its always best to stop before it gets to that point.

[Critias]

Commlinks can't run cyberprograms because the megacorps would rather sell you cyberdecks and RCCs for that.  Look at the profit margins! 

Commlinks don't have to run cyberprograms, because many of the day-to-day things you want a cyberprogram for, a commlink can already attempt to do (a pistol can't shoot sniper rifle bullets, but it can still perform the basic task of 'shoot someone,' right?).

If you just can't sleep at night without houseruling it so that commlinks can run cyberprograms, then that's fine, knock yourself out.  But don't insist it's the only logical way to read the books, don't insist the books don't clearly spell out otherwise, and don't act like everyone else is playing it wrong and they're the ones house-ruling it.

[martinchaen]

Let me look at this from another angle, like mentioned by others; WHY do you feel the need to allow links to run common cyberprograms?

Examining the common cyberprograms, they really aren't all that beneficial except in two cases; firewall and noise reduction.

Browse:
Useful enough, but your Matrix specialist is going to be better at this 99 times out of a hundred, seeing as the majority of non-Matrix based characters I've seen don't take several ranks of Computer.

Configurator:
Wouldn't do any good as links can reconfigure their stats anyway.

Edit:
Wouldn't do any good as you never need to roll Edit your own files, and hackers can't share marks, so you can't Edit someone else's files anyway.

Encryption:
For 80 nuyen, this becomes an immediate must-take. Why not just give all the devices +1 Firewall while you're at it?

Signal Scrub:
For 80 nuyen, this becomes an absolute immediate must-take. Why not just give all links +2 Noise Reduction while you're at it?

Toolbox:
Marginally useful, as the amount of Matrix Actions you'll need to actually roll for when using a link are few and far between. Besides, Signal Scrub and Encryption eke out the top spots for at least the bottom 3 devices anyway.

Virtual Machine:
Useful for low-end devices, despite the increased Matrix damage.

In essence, what you are doing by allowing commlinks to run common cyberprograms is slightly skew the game balance in favour of non-Matrix characters, as they'll have a harder time getting through your firewall, and the best link in the game becomes comparable with a 500,000 nuyen cyberdeck in terms of firewall and has an effective noise cancellation potential of 9, all for the meager cost of 160 nuyen. Does that really sound fair to you?

I know what my answer is; there are plenty of in-game justifications if you ease off the real-world analogies for a little (it makes no sense to me that wireless transmissions are somehow faster than wired ones, but I've accepted this as a game balance reason and moved on), you'll see that you'll be skewing game balance for no real (to me) apparent reason.

So, to echo others in this thread:

From a game mechanics point of view, not a story point of view, why exactly do you feel that commlinks should be allowed to run cyberprograms?

[Whiskeyjack]

it in fact had a brief reference to the new hardware commlinks running programs.

Oh. My. God.

Commlinks are clearly running "programs." You clearly can't search the Matrix or send messages without using some "program." These "programs" are part of a built-in suite native to the commlink, since they cannot be separately purchased (nothing in any table, no prices, etc). The commlink is effectively using built-in "programs" (i.e. Safari) to do this.

These "programs," in other words, the Device Rating, are separate and distinct from the Programs (capital-P, or perhaps called "cyberprograms") like Browse, Edit, Configurator, etc that are deck-only, as martinchaen explained above.

You are making a classic mistake of reading fluff into crunch, and that doesn't work well.

I'm trying to get out of this thread considering the virulent hatred of the idea others have shown

Is that why you haven't bothered answering my question as to why you think commlinks need to be able to use cyberprograms?

It's pretty clear Senko is not going to answer this.

[Senko]

@Zeconster
Yes that is the reason I hadn't answered your question. However as you seem curious enough to ask it a few timed I think they should be able to run common cyber programs purely from a fluff/thus makes sense in the context of the world and how things work. That's the reason purely fluff related to the prevelance of computers and how their used not crunch related except as in countering arguments as to why they cant.

@Martinchaen
Wait I thought we still needed to roll to edit a file even if we had permission to do so?

@Whiskeyjack
I'm not using that as an argument for running cyberprograms but rather as a counter for the commlinks have no extra space argument as It proves they haven't reached their limit in running programs or they couldn't do this at all due to having no spare processing power.

@Critias
I've never claimed this is how things work and I'm pretty sure I stated any rulings I made would be houserules.

@Incredbil
I'm not actually trying to outlast anyone I first tried dropping this back on p.g. 4/5 then again on page 9. I'm just not very good at it when other people keep posting comments like storm front explains x when it doesn't.

[Namikaze]

Senko, did you ever consider why it seems that Storm Front's explanation of the new Matrix protocols is not sufficient for you?  Most of us here (not all of us, mind you) feel that the explanation given is sufficient.  You do not.  I think you should ponder on that a little bit.

[Critias]

Commlinks are clearly running "programs." You clearly can't search the Matrix or send messages without using some "program." These "programs" are part of a built-in suite native to the commlink, since they cannot be separately purchased (nothing in any table, no prices, etc). The commlink is effectively using built-in "programs" (i.e. Safari) to do this.

These "programs," in other words, the Device Rating, are separate and distinct from the Programs (capital-P, or perhaps called "cyberprograms") like Browse, Edit, Configurator, etc that are deck-only, as martinchaen explained above.

Yeah, that's part of his disconnect, I think.  It's like...okay, a commlink, like many a boxed-up computer today, comes with MSPaint on it.  For the day to day needs of a generic dude using a low-tier commlink, that's enough.  He's got his MSPaint, he's got his Word, he can play a little Solitaire, he thinks Internet Explorer is awesome, and all's right with the world.  He can do the stuff he expects a commlink to do, when he needs the commlink to do those things.

But that's not the same as running the professional-grade, programs-put-on-to-spec, hyper-specialized-software, stuff.  And why can't a commlink run that stuff?  Because it just can't.  Trying to read too much more into it, torturing yet more real-life hardware/software terms, to try and make sense of it?  It's an exercise in futility, because real-life hacking is boring as shit, and has absolutely nothing at all to do with Shadowrun-hacking, so you've really got to learn to just go with the flow. 

And Stormfront does explain it, as well as it needs to be explained.  Because a part of long-term RPGs is edition changes, and edition changes bring with them metaphysical changes in how the universe operates.  Trolls changed their running speed.  Some skills changed.  Spells changed (a lot).  And you know what?  Hacking, and the tools used to hack, also changed (hell, VCRigs weren't even a thing in 4th edition).  So there's a book or two released to foreshadow the changes, to try and smooth them over, and then an absolutely necessary part of gaming is to shrug your shoulders and roll with it.

I know that "because they just don't" is a shitty answer, but you know what?  It's the actual answer.  IRL, there was a decision made to shift hacking away from commlinks (and casual users) and back to being a dedicated role (with cyberdecks again, being used by deckers).  Everything else is secondary.