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What exactly IS "full-body armor?"

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Elektrycerze3

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« Reply #15 on: <05-23-14/0417:18> »
The amount of environments that need it are pretty limited. Sure, if you're Run is happening near Chernobyl, Pripyat, you'll need it.

Or GlowCity. Or the SOX. Or anywhere near Toxic Shamans. Or when MCT HTR uses Seven-7 extensively. Or when your plan for when shit hits the fan is to gas everyone around. By the way, it doesn't offer radiation protection by itself.

My players all know the perks of having the chemical seal quite well =) And not having it as a separate item adds another tactical choice. Everything has a price and all that.

You might want to check survival bubble on p. 83 of Run&Gun.
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LionofPerth

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« Reply #16 on: <05-23-14/1143:11> »
The amount of environments that need it are pretty limited. Sure, if you're Run is happening near Chernobyl, Pripyat, you'll need it.

Or GlowCity. Or the SOX. Or anywhere near Toxic Shamans. Or when MCT HTR uses Seven-7 extensively. Or when your plan for when shit hits the fan is to gas everyone around. By the way, it doesn't offer radiation protection by itself.

My players all know the perks of having the chemical seal quite well =) And not having it as a separate item adds another tactical choice. Everything has a price and all that.

You might want to check survival bubble on p. 83 of Run&Gun.

That's one item out of how many for survival? I highly doubt that even with a pretty strict reading of Shadowrun's world, it's on a whole not that bad. I guess we might see two different worlds on this one.

Before I say anything that might be seen as insulting, agree to disagree?

In my mind the reputation for using chemical weapons, things like that don't go away. They stand out and stay out. I hope you give you some danger money for those types of Runs.
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Serin_Marst

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« Reply #17 on: <05-23-14/1258:24> »
Serin, new edition, new rule set, that argument doesn't fly with me yet.

I agree.  I don't really think that there is a clear definition of what constitutes FBA, but I can see some logic in Michael's, even if I don't completely agree with it.  The 5th edition rule changes don't really fit with a definition that applies to an armored body-glove, to me.  My read of their in-game effects imply a bulky and/or heavily armored full-body suit.

Right now I'm of the opinion that Full Body Armour and Chem Sealed might need to be treated as two different items. I think about the items I know to be chemically sealed and to a whole, they don't particularly work as body armour, armour for direct combat.

SOCOM's TALOS system would definitely cross that line.  That's pretty much SR's Mil-Spec armor.  Granted, it doesn't exist out side of the prototype/design phase.

They are separate items, really.  Chem seal is a modification available to a sub-set of armor that qualifies as "full-body."  That's why the specific call outs in the descriptions/rules for CRB-FBA and Mil-spec armor stand out to me.

I can see how some fire suits can be sealed, same goes for diving suits, they already are in the latter case.

Actually, most dive gear probably wouldn't qualify by default.  Dry/Arctic suits yes, but most wetsuits(like the Diving Armor) are made of permeable insulating material and typically don't include gloves, hoods or footings.  Half my family are master divers, I've some first hand experience.

In my mind the reputation for using chemical weapons, things like that don't go away. They stand out and stay out. I hope you give you some danger money for those types of Runs.

How about tear gas?  Yeah, full on nerve gas is pretty much limited to particularly nasty conflict zones (Azzies are known to have caught heat for using it in the Yucatan, for example) or MCT zero-zones, but tear gas is a pretty common opener for a basic tactical unit.  Some sort of chemical protection is pretty standard for my group(s) as well.

LionofPerth

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« Reply #18 on: <05-23-14/1348:17> »
Forgive the lack of a quote Serin, I'll try to answer without too many a tangent.

I don't want to say bulky as part of any description. I would say that it should cover the torso and provide significant protection, for constant high level threats or combat. Something that is designed to take a real beating and keep you alive. Something you also can't easily add additional protection to. The standard out of the factory unit will do the trick, short of some very specialised combat roles or threats.

If you've worn chainmail or full plate armour correctly, it's actually not that bulky, you can move quite freely in it. Sure, you make a lot of noise, but you can move around quite easily in it.

As for diving gear, I was referring to dry suits, more specialised deep water gear. That they're suits, that are sealed and keep the internal atmosphere distinct and separate from the external. Even to a degree some of rebreather gear out there, with the right suit attached. If you know better here, which it sounds like you do, I'll have to take your word for it. See below for what else I'm thinking about. It's also been a few years since I last looked at getting a diving ticket, so I might be well and truly off the mark as well.

I look at my character and I've bought a gas mask, that's not to say I'm looking at making sure her primary armour options are going to be able to deal with every threat, chemical and physical. I suppose here I am also more thinking of the type you talk about the LD50 than tear gas. That stuff countries, corporations will get heat for using. Not the fun type of heat, the nasty type of heat that gives Runners work. Assassinations potentially as well.

As for tear gas, see above, gas mask. It's not fun stuff to get exposed to, I'll leave that to Burn Notice to explain why. On the other side of it.... if you're doing a run properly, you shouldn't need to worry about tear gas or the occasional night guide. Proper planning and research, the right equipment and just a little bit of luck should get you through most jobs. It's the ones that pay a little too well I worry about, as a potential player.

Tear gas does count, I'm think I might have some mental wires crossed. Other projects are at the level of 'eh, gas the lot of them to be sure' and it's a full on nerve agent.
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firebug

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« Reply #19 on: <05-23-14/1420:58> »
How about "it has to be capable of covering all of it"? Everything I named falls under that.

That's how I play it.  Though I also would include a Chameleon Suit, since I assume they're supposed to cover your whole body including your head.  But I usually houserule them having an additional helmet like the Urban Explorer since they seem to be the only armor lacking it despite it not making sense (to me) otherwise.
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LionofPerth

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« Reply #20 on: <05-23-14/1430:26> »
How about "it has to be capable of covering all of it"? Everything I named falls under that.

That's how I play it.  Though I also would include a Chameleon Suit, since I assume they're supposed to cover your whole body including your head.  But I usually houserule them having an additional helmet like the Urban Explorer since they seem to be the only armor lacking it despite it not making sense (to me) otherwise.

I imagine it more like Kira's combat suit from Continuum to be honest. All of the functionality, maybe even Shock Frills as well.
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Serin_Marst

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« Reply #21 on: <05-23-14/1438:53> »
I think we're pretty close to the same page here, Lion.

By bulky, I meant "having bulk(i.e. volume) or mass" not necessarily restrictive.   I intended to imply something that would be hard to fit additional trappings over.

I'm of a similar mind to your definition, with the caveat that I'd say it would have to cover the trunk and limbs to qualify as "full-body."

You're on target as far as dry suits(which is more of a cold water set-up) or deep water gear go.  I only mentioned dive gear because the dive armor in R&G is described as an armored wetsuit, which wouldn't be an impermeable barrier against a contact vector.  It'd probably make it worse, actually.

Lethal nerve agents are canonically part of MCT zero-zones, it's something of a signature for them, but that is an extreme security measure (and specifically called out as warranting extra hazard pay) and, you're right, most runs are unlikely to have to deal with poison gas.  Tear gas, on the other hand, can reasonably be standard issue for a corp-sec guard at a secure facility (it is in at least one of the fiction pieces in R&G, for example).  A gas mask is a sufficient precaution, chem-seal would be another option.

LionofPerth

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« Reply #22 on: <05-24-14/0535:31> »
I think we're pretty close to the same page here, Lion.

By bulky, I meant "having bulk(i.e. volume) or mass" not necessarily restrictive.   I intended to imply something that would be hard to fit additional trappings over.

I'm of a similar mind to your definition, with the caveat that I'd say it would have to cover the trunk and limbs to qualify as "full-body."

You're on target as far as dry suits(which is more of a cold water set-up) or deep water gear go.  I only mentioned dive gear because the dive armor in R&G is described as an armored wetsuit, which wouldn't be an impermeable barrier against a contact vector.  It'd probably make it worse, actually.

Lethal nerve agents are canonically part of MCT zero-zones, it's something of a signature for them, but that is an extreme security measure (and specifically called out as warranting extra hazard pay) and, you're right, most runs are unlikely to have to deal with poison gas.  Tear gas, on the other hand, can reasonably be standard issue for a corp-sec guard at a secure facility (it is in at least one of the fiction pieces in R&G, for example).  A gas mask is a sufficient precaution, chem-seal would be another option.

I'd even argue the presence of tear gas. It's a pretty pervasive, if temporary, gas and it's pretty indiscriminate. I've got a bit of long post coming, so I'll try to be as brief as I can.

I believe that the corps have a scale of security and enforcement. That the average guard has a radio with some sort of alarm functionality, a side arm, baton and maybe an armoured vest. They're designed to look good and advertise this area is under observation. They don't need to wear a formal uniform, but it helps.

Above them I see an armed response team, submachine guns, shotguns, heavier armour than the door guards, but not full combat armour. They've got a little more kit to play with as well, customised weapons, flashbangs, but still not tear gas. They're there to respond to a breach and to lock it down as fast as possible. They're also first responders in the case of emergencies as well, fires, medical, Runners etc.

Within the previous listed group, I imagine a riot control squad, these guys are the first guys to see proper combat armour and tear gas. This is for when mass units, mobs are attacking and need to be discouraged, not killed. This about a statement of force that we could have killed you, we've got the potential to kill you, but we're being nice. This is a specialised role that is only called in specific and I'd argue rare circumstances. Sure, they might get sent up against a Runner team, but it will be part of a plan to delay them and force them into an ambush.

Above them I'm starting to see direct combat units, who are specialised for direct combat. This is where you have corporate soldiers and special forces. This is where the level of force is always lethal. Bonuses are paid for making sure all of a team gets out of alive and all of the Runners targeted are dead, two extra in the brainpan just to be sure. These people are wearing high grade armour, high grade weapons, specialised training in order to be more dangerous than the average bear.

I'd argue that depending on the level of security the facility calls for, you go straight from 'we're being nice' to 'kill them all'. There's certain levels you go to protect secrets. I'd also argue that certain personnel are going to be protected. Tear gas makes it much harder to identify and remove those key personnel from a combat area. Adding in a visual obstruction and one that also serves to disable them? It doesn't make sense on some level. So, when you've got everyone out, sure, throw a few grenades of tear gas. Yet if you're stuck running on visual confirmation of a hostile and a friendly, why do you sabotage that?

Sure, yes, tear gas is used, I don't think it is as pervasive in use as people think. It's a pretty nasty tool to use and more importantly it's only one of many. Normal smoke, flash bangs, I'd argue those are much more common and to a degree, when used by people with training, represent a significant threat and can be just as effective as tear gas, without the nausea. Basic tactics are often all a good team needs. Coming in on the flanks, ambushing a team as they try to move. All of those can be done without tear gas.

I think a part of is that role players are taking a very.... gamer centric point of view to the game. That if you can be prepared for something, you over prepare for it. If I as a player can chem seal my armour, I'm going to do all my Runs in it. Game masters then I suppose feel the need to use it, gases, toxins, poisons, as often as they can and try to catch people off guard so that they can hit them with things like tear gas, or in the case of MCT Zero Zones, something a little more dangerous.

On the same side I believe that a good Runner makes sure that there's little reason for the lethal force to come out. Yes, you can kill everyone in your way, including the unfortunate wage slaves who are working late. The other option is to have a plan and be nice about it. Yes, point a few guns, tie a few people up, maybe even fake a few alarms to distract security. Go full hog and cut power to the building as well.

Now tell me, as a high level corp manager, which would you go after first? Would you think about recruiting the low foot print team?

Good to see we're on the same page on a few elements here.

I could go with providing protection for the limbs as well. I'm still not too sure on it, while I appreciate the threats of the Sixth World, there's also something to be said for the fact that full military/corporate grade armour is going to be easy to get or commonly needed. I think that between the respirators, gas masks and survival bubble, there's plenty of options to protect yourself against chemical threats. To be honest I think if every Runner has a respirator or a gas mask, they're set. Going to the extent of a full Chem Seal armour, that's a statement of intent on your part, not just dealing with a threat.

See the above question about the low foot print team. If I see a guy wearing full armour with it being Chem Sealed, I'm more than happy to assume that they are willing to drop a cannister of  tear gas themselves, or worse. Otherwise why are they are wearing that level of protection as well? You're asking to be marked as a target, which means you might not survive as long as you otherwise might.

If I had to narrow down to a single definition now, I would say that Full Body Armour is one that coverages a significant portion of the body, upwards of seventy percent. This includes notable protection over the limbs, neck and torso. Front and back, in addition it should also provide the tools to assist in long term combat. Webbing and the like here. I would also argue a limit on the amount of component customisation, but be very easily visually customised, camouflage.
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ZeConster

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« Reply #23 on: <05-24-14/0637:47> »
I'd also wonder why a person would go to the effort of having a fully sealed set of armour. The amount of environments that need it are pretty limited. Sure, if you're Run is happening near Chernobyl, Pripyat, you'll need it. While the Sixth World is heavily polluted, I don't think you need one to leave the house. Air locks would be a lot more common as well.
Fun fact: one of Season 5's Missions actually takes place inside a radiation zone.
And of course a chemical seal makes you immune to both contact-vector and inhalation-vector toxins (not entirely sure on what the official statement is about "Contact, Inhalation" toxins if you only have a gas mask or respirator).

LionofPerth

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« Reply #24 on: <05-24-14/0655:44> »
I'd also wonder why a person would go to the effort of having a fully sealed set of armour. The amount of environments that need it are pretty limited. Sure, if you're Run is happening near Chernobyl, Pripyat, you'll need it. While the Sixth World is heavily polluted, I don't think you need one to leave the house. Air locks would be a lot more common as well.
Fun fact: one of Season 5's Missions actually takes place inside a radiation zone.
And of course a chemical seal makes you immune to both contact-vector and inhalation-vector toxins (not entirely sure on what the official statement is about "Contact, Inhalation" toxins if you only have a gas mask or respirator).

Respirator I would argue absorption would be unaffected, inhalation, that would be stopped.

If someone could give me numbers here, that's one mission out of how many?

My point is that this is specialised gear, when it's required, you get it. You don't bring it with you every single run. You simply don't need that level of protection on every single run.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #25 on: <05-24-14/1506:53> »
I'd also wonder why a person would go to the effort of having a fully sealed set of armour. The amount of environments that need it are pretty limited. Sure, if you're Run is happening near Chernobyl, Pripyat, you'll need it. While the Sixth World is heavily polluted, I don't think you need one to leave the house. Air locks would be a lot more common as well.
Fun fact: one of Season 5's Missions actually takes place inside a radiation zone.
And of course a chemical seal makes you immune to both contact-vector and inhalation-vector toxins (not entirely sure on what the official statement is about "Contact, Inhalation" toxins if you only have a gas mask or respirator).
'highest of the two's protections, lowest if your gm is a dick' iirc?
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LionofPerth

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« Reply #26 on: <05-25-14/0552:25> »
I'd also wonder why a person would go to the effort of having a fully sealed set of armour. The amount of environments that need it are pretty limited. Sure, if you're Run is happening near Chernobyl, Pripyat, you'll need it. While the Sixth World is heavily polluted, I don't think you need one to leave the house. Air locks would be a lot more common as well.
Fun fact: one of Season 5's Missions actually takes place inside a radiation zone.
And of course a chemical seal makes you immune to both contact-vector and inhalation-vector toxins (not entirely sure on what the official statement is about "Contact, Inhalation" toxins if you only have a gas mask or respirator).
'highest of the two's protections, lowest if your gm is a dick' iirc?

I actually think the entry for the Gas Mask and Respirator have quite distinct values for what level of protection they provide. I'll have to check it out when I get a moment.
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