[martinchaen]

"Considering I don't see any reason for cyberlimbs to alter limits, from mechanical nor balance purposes"

Why not just state that and move on?

Also, the passive aggressive tone is duly noted. Have a nice day.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

And with that, I'm out; I've made my contribution to I_AM_ZHOUL!!!'s suggestion.

Thank you

I figured it out roughly in my head that it was a slightly lower limits than natural attribute ones but still was a bonus high enough to make them viable. The fact that the 2 feet/1 hand armor soak gets brought up so often is a testament to the fact that cyberlimbs have some glaring issues that were missed.... so using it as the reason for why cyberlimbs are "broken" is a completely specious logical argument. It shows that maybe, just maybe, there might be an interaction with a completely new mechanic that's being introduced into a system that I've been playing since 95 (and I like the concept, my point is that it's brand new in the 5th incarnation of a system that is almost 30 years old.) So, you wanna make the point that not only by RAW is 2 feet/1 hand giving +9 armor soak dice but that it is RAI, then fine your arguement about cyberlimbs not factoring into Physical Limit is RAW and RAI as well. But it's an all or nothing kinda thing in my mind... that then becomes RAW is always RAI. But on the other hand if you think that the 2 feet/1 hand giving +9 arnor soak is so ridiculous that as a PC you'd tell your buddy Stop It, the GM shouldn't even need to say anything it's so dumb.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

@ ZeConster
 I took your comment as flippant because it was... it was dimissive without addressing any points. So, I was flippant in response... not a big deal... lets drop it and move on, ok?

As to your point about how partial limbs and hands/feet would work I thought it was explicit in that I said it would work similar to the Damage Condition Monitor bonus works.... meaning hand/feet don't count at all & partial limbs count as half. Excuse me for not stating explicitly the rule set that I was basing this one off of... I'll be more clear in the future. So that would mean that it would take 4 partial limbs to get a +1 limit bonus. I felt was a fair boost to characters that wanna go full cyberlimbs so of course str/agi are going to be dump stats since they will never be used for anything but Limit or Movement calculation in game play... magic or drugs will not be able to boost your cyberlimbs. Since there is already stuff about using Movement Rate with cyberlegs in the House Rule section, a discussion about the difference between RAW and RAI in regards to Limit calculation seems highly appropriate to me. But if you feel that the RAW is the same as RAI on this instance, that's fine as I previously stated. It means by the same logic that the 2 feet/1 hand cheese is RAI as well since its RAW, which I don't agree with at all.

[ZeConster]

"Considering I don't see any reason for cyberlimbs to alter limits, from mechanical nor balance purposes"

Why not just state that and move on?

Also, the passive aggressive tone is duly noted. Have a nice day.

If you'd actually read my posts properly, you would already know the answer to your question. Here's why that sentence is true and not just "passive aggressive tone": not only did I already state this opinion in the post you and Zhoul called "flippant", but directly after the part you decided to quote just now, are roughly six lines of text explaining exactly why I didn't "just state that and move on".
Also, my "passive aggressive tone" is 90% about countering your passive-aggressiveness (the other 10% is being annoyed at your holier-than-thou attitude about said passive-aggressiveness).

@ ZeConster
 I took your comment as flippant because it was... it was dimissive without addressing any points. So, I was flippant in response... not a big deal... lets drop it and move on, ok?

Maybe to you it's not a big deal, but to me it's a pretty big deal when someone acts like a jerk and falsely accuses me of being disrespectful to justify their behavior. And yes, I say falsely, because this is what I posted:

I don't really see a reason why cyberlimbs should affect your limits: that's not what they're for. If you want to change your limits, you could just get stat-boosting 'ware.

How, exactly, is that post "frivolously disrespectful, shallow, or lacking in seriousness"? I simply stated, briefly, my personal viewpoint that cyberlimbs (which allow you to ignore the augmented maximum rules and can have all sorts of cool stuff in them) shouldn't affect your limits because that isn't what cyberlimbs are for - if you want a higher Physical limit, you can get 'ware that boosts your actual physical attributes, or even Enhanced Articulation bioware, which directly increases your Physical limit by +1, for 0.3 Essence and 24k nuyen. Rather than waste 5-10 minutes on a lengthy explanation of how cyberlimbs are totally different from other 'ware (much like Technomancers are totally different from deckers) that nobody would be interested in anyway, I decided to keep my post brief and to the point.
So you see, to me this isn't about you being "flippant" - in fact, until I read your post calling it flippant, I just thought it was a really dumb argument, since like I said, "Technomancers are different from deckers, and do things differently - which is precisely the point I was making about cyberlimbs" - it is about me trying to add to a discussion and you acting like I waltzed in there to insult you, then refusing to admit you were wrong.
If you want to take this to PM, that's fine, but I will not "drop it and move on" because - even putting aside that "if someone offends me, that makes it okay for me to be a jerk" is a really crappy attitude to have - "it" isn't what you think it is.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

That makes sense... you wouldn't have understood the logical underpinnings of what made my statement a flippant response if you don't understand the the logical underpinnings of what made yours flippant as well. The "thats not the purpose of cyberlimbs" in regards to Limits when it's a brand new mechanic being introduced into the system which requires a retcon of the previous 25 years of the shadowrun universe being encapsulated as a 2 two sentence response not being serious. If you wanna make a statement that involves retconning the previous quarter of a century in regards to how something functions than a much more detailed response is required for me at least to take seriously. I like the new mechanic, I thinks it's a good concept. I just feel like maybe it was not fully 100% realized in the fact it's a brand new mechanic being introduced for the first time. Maybe we as the community should take a critical look at it to see if maybe the designers mightve missed small or obscure aspects of it, seeing as they are fallible human beings just like the rest of us. But to just dismiss it as "not the purpose" when in fact it has been one of it's main purposes for a quarter of a century is a mind boggling concept for me to try to comphrend.

Personally I have no want, need, nor desire to "take this to PM." Since A. This isn't a flame war or in anyway personal, but more importantly B. this is still on topic even if it has gone into the esoteric aspect of what should be applied and how...

[ZeConster]

Actually, even in 4th, cyberlimbs weren't there to make you better like regular 'ware did: they allowed you to circumvent your own weaknesses to some degree. 5th edition has simply emphasized this some more - by restricting augmented maximum compared to 4th and then making cyberlimbs not subject to those restrictions, and adding limits which are not affected by cyberlimbs - but cyberlimbs have previous history of being a different kind of beast. So again, there was nothing disrespectful about my post.
And of course, the fact that cyberlimbs aren't subject to the augmented maximum rules in 5th edition serves as an argument in favor of them not affecting limits.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

What "Limits" were there in 4th..? Oh yeah.... none. What about about the 3 previous editions..? Nope not there either. I'm not even saying that they should be used to calculate the Limit now... just a straight limit bonus on the scale of 1=+0/ 2=+1/ 3=+2/ 4=+3 with similar restrictions as the Damage Condition Monitor bonus, meaning hands/feet don't count and Partial Limbs only count as half... that seems pretty fair to me, but don't say that cyberlimbs have ever functioned in any of the previous editions like they do now, they couldn't have cause there was NEVER a Limit on your hits before. Especially considering that you can only go up to natural maximum +3 as opposed to natural maximum +7 (with a cyber torso) in 4th edition... which is fine considering they nerfed all the cyber/bio in 5th by making everything non stacking with everything else. But please refrain from grossly inaccurate claims about what was in defense of what is... I'm fine with you having a RAW is RAI as your logic, just be aware that is the same logic that allows the 2 feet/1 hand +9 armor nonsense.... so I find the logic while being 100% accurate to be completely fallacious in the face of examples like that...

[Xenon]

I totally lost you both at the word "flippant"... over a page ago... Relax please, both of you.

Cyberlimbs does not offer an increase to [Physical].
Zhoul think they should and offered a houserule.

Personally I don't think that particular aspect of cyberlimbs is broken.
Personally I don't think you need to "fix" (or "break") things that are not broken to begin with.
Personally I would not use Zhoul' house rule.

But it is Zhoul's table, and at Zhoul's tables there will be Zhoul's rules.
Nothing wrong with adding house rules for stuff you don't agree with.
If you want to add limit for using full limbs; go for it!

[Medicineman]

What "Limits" were there in 4th..? Oh yeah.... none.

Ahem....Spells
(Personally I think that Limits (and their limitations) are exaggerated and 'feared' to much.
I've played some sessions now with different Chars and I can remember only one case when they were a hindrance)

HougH!
Medicineman

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

What "Limits" were there in 4th..? Oh yeah.... none.

Ahem....Spells
(Personally I think that Limits (and their limitations) are exaggerated and 'feared' to much.
I've played some sessions now with different Chars and I can remember only one case when they were a hindrance)

HougH!
Medicineman

Spells aren't what we are talking about... that's a completely different mechanic, Magic is it's own thing that doesn't work the same though there resemblances....

I agree that the Limit thing isn't that a big deal and having absurdly high limits is of no real value since your die pool needs to be 3x your limit before you should hit on average... except in the case of a character that goes full cyberlimbs, since a full cyber character usually uses them as dump stats... nobody needs a trolls 14 physical limit but an increase from 4-5-6 to 7-8-9 would be nice if you wanna do anything else besides shooting (which uses accuracy not the limit anyways)

[Xenon]

Ever occurred to you that maybe the whole point of cyberlimbs does not give limit in the first place is so you don't (ab)use them to dump stat strength

[SlowDeck]

I thought the whole point of them was to give humans a way to stand up to trolls in a fist fight 

And, can't you potentially make a troll with cyberlimbs that have a strength of 17?

[martinchaen]

Xenon
My biggest issue with cyberlimbs not affecting limits is that this leads to potential issues with characters who choose to go for full-on cybernetic replacements; by default, such characters have to go for Priority A because of the exorbitant cost of cybernetic limbs, which means less Priorities for everything else, which means that in most cases cybernetic limbs are going to be inferior to other 'ware such as muscle replacement and it's bioware equivalent.

Getting a character to "average" stats (for a human, meaning all 3s) requires using Priority C for Attributes, and this gives you a physical limit of 4. You can boost that with qualities and the like, but again, a build that focuses on cyberlimbs will almost always be inferior to characters built purely around ware. For a game that has had cyberlimbs for two decades, and for which these are a large part of the fluff, I find this to be a sad state of things, quite frankly.

In short, the crunch doesn't line up with the fluff. If cyberlimbs are so ubiqutous and easily available (as indicated by the fluff), why are they so vastly inferior to 'ware while costing more to pull off? In a universe where technology keeps advancing, cyberlimbs seem to have been left behind. Sure, everything has a cost; to my mind, the 4+ Essence and the 400k ¥ a player has to spend on 'ware to get them to the AGI9 STR9 everyone keeps harping on about as an issue is MORE than a price in and of itself, if you ask me. Answer me this; how many bioware and cyberware samurai do you see created and/or played vs characters with cyberlimbs?

SlowDeck
Which, under the current rules, they have no chance of doing. With average stats (3), a human character has a physical limit of 4. The Troll is guaranteed to have more simply due to his higher base STR of 5; before putting ANY points into stats, a Troll begins the game with a minimum physical limit of 6, already 2 higher than the human. Upping the humans Agility and Strength with cyberlimbs does nothing for his physical limit, so the human is limited to 4 hits whenever he tries to attack.

Sure, there are ways around this with positive qualities and the like, but despite their very high ¥ and Essence investment cyberlimbs just aren't competitive with other forms of ware, in my opinion.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

Ever occurred to you that maybe the whole point of cyberlimbs does not give limit in the first place is so you don't (ab)use them to dump stat strength

Yes it did occur to me... but seeing as how that means a retcon of the 25 years of the previous 4 editions, maybe a slight inattention to a very niche build could be just as likely (and if we're being honest and applying Occams Razor, the true answer.) Also, they have already nerfed cyberlimbs in comparison to the previous editions and I'm not talking about the cost which was applied pretty liberals to all ware. But the fact that they not only capped the enhancement rating at 3 instead of 7 making a cybertorso the dumbest and most useless piece of gear in the book but by stripping the BODY attribute out completely!!! So at no point am I suggesting anything that would effect things like the 2 feet/1 hand armor cheese or the Decker agi 9 gunarm... but only provide a reasonable boost to pretty niche characters. You know... so they could do a lot of the things that they have always been able to do... like all the stuff BESIDES combat... since gear overrides natural limits anyways

[ZeConster]

What "Limits" were there in 4th..? Oh yeah.... none. What about about the 3 previous editions..? Nope not there either. I'm not even saying that they should be used to calculate the Limit now... just a straight limit bonus on the scale of 1=+0/ 2=+1/ 3=+2/ 4=+3 with similar restrictions as the Damage Condition Monitor bonus, meaning hands/feet don't count and Partial Limbs only count as half... that seems pretty fair to me, but don't say that cyberlimbs have ever functioned in any of the previous editions like they do now, they couldn't have cause there was NEVER a Limit on your hits before. Especially considering that you can only go up to natural maximum +3 as opposed to natural maximum +7 (with a cyber torso) in 4th edition... which is fine considering they nerfed all the cyber/bio in 5th by making everything non stacking with everything else. But please refrain from grossly inaccurate claims about what was in defense of what is... I'm fine with you having a RAW is RAI as your logic, just be aware that is the same logic that allows the 2 feet/1 hand +9 armor nonsense.... so I find the logic while being 100% accurate to be completely fallacious in the face of examples like that...

You do realize that not only did I not say there were limits in 4th, I in fact literally said 5th edition added limits, which makes your entire rant meritless, right? Now who's making "grossly inaccurate claims"?