[Shinobi Killfist]

the "mage/shaman/decker " is the guy that's actually going to have a decent willpower, and won't be taking these qualities.

True but elf shamans can easily sport 8 charisma, so it can pad them a few extra dice.  And with the absurdity that is the increase reflexes spell they have the initiative to spare. 

[Sir_Prometheus]

OK.  Like I said, in seems overpowered. 

[Mirikon]

I think you're overplaying things here. As was mentioned, Full Defense isn't something most players do that often, especially since your ranged defense test is more than just your Reaction score, like it was in 4th. It is the same reason why Harden is second only to Splash as the most useless move in Pokemon. You can't win a fight by going turtle. You have to attack. This really only comes into play when there's that pants-browning attack incoming, and you really need to get out of the way, because OH FRAG, THAT'S AN ASSAULT CANNON! Most times, it is usually better to do normal defense, and maybe use edge to reroll if you have to, than to go full defense. Sure, you have a potentially major swing of dice when going from Willpower to any other attribute, but this is a niche thing. Any character that relies entirely on full defense will eventually be ground down, just like that damn Metapod who uses nothing but Harden. Seriously, how do those things ever survive to level 10 to evolve if they do nothing but Harden?

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

It would still only be -10 to your initiative.  It's important to realize, as Xenon described, that using Full defense does not cost you your action phase in this or the next IP like it did in 4th edition (IIRC).  It only costs your initiative score, which indirectly might mean you have no more actions in this round, but maybe not.

So when you move, and take a simple action, you still have a simple action left which you don't have to use, but when your turn is done, you can then take full defense (but like Xenon said, it's silly to do this interrupt before you're attacked).  The interrupt action will cost you 10 and then the end of the IP will cost everyone 10 and thus begin the next IP.

Ah, I see my disconnect. My table uses the R&G alternative Initiative rule. -10 after your turn, not -10 after everyone goes.

Which still makes it -20 vs. -10.  You shoot (22-10=12), he shoots (11-10=1), you interrupt-full-defense (12-10=2) and it's the next action - you go on 2, he goes on 1.

[Booze]

I was more scared about the perceptive and acrobatic defender as it is easier to rise your skill far over 6 [natural max for humans, seems to be a good point of discusion]. It is doable to rise full defence dice pool for an adept up to 40* at character generation, and that is scary!
But: It was mentioned in few topics of mine and there are some conclusions. The Limits. As they have to be rised to some level to let it be usefull. About 10, or higher for physical is quite easy*, and I don't see an ocasion that would require more, oh, and you always have edge to break it.
*It is all about Adept. Mentor spirit, improved potential, and some other things make it worth it.
2.But: Initiative, at such a dramatic score, the initiative is hard to max. The problem would solve a mage with increased reflexes spell, or beeing a mystic adept capable of casting it**.
3.But: Points, it is a hell of a build. And it is hard to make it god at more than few things. It would propably use 2-3 skills based on REA, STR, INT, AGI[optional] as this would be his primary focus. So he could fill ap one role, combat specialist. With low CHA, WIL & LOG/
4.But: As a combat specialist he is not going to be a tank. No way he could really make a difrance, becouse enemy would have no problem with shooting his friends rather than him.
**A Mystic adept is a nice idea... with some problems. As there are only two traditions that use WIL or LOG for drain, [preferably you could not use AIG in build, and use those point for CHArismaitc elf ], or convince your GM to let you use a Bhuddistic tradition from 4ed, that resists drain on INT
5. If you really consider a mystic adept, thing about a spellslinger.

As a promised, here is a link to such a build. Still, i just caped the Full Defence Dice Pool at about ~30 +/-5
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=16787.msg296783#msg296783

[Absols]

I think you're overplaying things here. As was mentioned, Full Defense isn't something most players do that often, especially since your ranged defense test is more than just your Reaction score, like it was in 4th. It is the same reason why Harden is second only to Splash as the most useless move in Pokemon. You can't win a fight by going turtle. You have to attack. This really only comes into play when there's that pants-browning attack incoming, and you really need to get out of the way, because OH FRAG, THAT'S AN ASSAULT CANNON! Most times, it is usually better to do normal defense, and maybe use edge to reroll if you have to, than to go full defense. Sure, you have a potentially major swing of dice when going from Willpower to any other attribute, but this is a niche thing. Any character that relies entirely on full defense will eventually be ground down, just like that damn Metapod who uses nothing but Harden. Seriously, how do those things ever survive to level 10 to evolve if they do nothing but Harden?

Your excessive use of Pokemon analogies pleases me.

[LionofPerth]

I didn't think they were too overpowered. I think in the grand scheme of things, that those who don't have the great combat stats, get enough of a boost to make it that little bit easier for them. Depending on the nature of your game, that could be useful or it could be what they need to do to survive.

I suppose I do like the Too Pretty To Hit quality as that does fit my character concept quite nicely. She's one that does rely on her looks to get through with a bluff rather than a gun. That being said, she doesn't play fair either and is rather talented with long arms.

For the book being about combat, I don't know if I expected more from it to be honest. More qualities, on a whole I guess.

As for the Pokemon references, analogies, that makes me feel old. I remember these type of discussions. Held in fact, in person.

[SunRunner]

The reality is that as soon as you get perceptive defender you bring a skill into the test and suddenly you have your Physical limit on your defense tests. Which means its only good if you have a great Perception skill and a great physical limit.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I have to admit I'd likely state that 'Too Pretty To Hit' applied only for as long as the character was not shooting back.  'Cause once you start sending lead downrange, buddy, it don't matter how pretty your face is, you just got a hell of a lot uglier ...

[LionofPerth]

I have to admit I'd likely state that 'Too Pretty To Hit' applied only for as long as the character was not shooting back.  'Cause once you start sending lead downrange, buddy, it don't matter how pretty your face is, you just got a hell of a lot uglier ...

Perchance some Army of Darkness in there?

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Not intentionally.

[SunRunner]

Or as i just realized Acrobatic defender applies the physical limit, Perceptive defender is a Mental skill and brings the Mental limit to the table. Your average street Sam may have his physical limit jack up to the point it dont matter but his mental limit is probably not that good. Fun thing about 5E is you gotta balance out your dice pool vs your limit cause having a dice pool of 50 with a limit of 3 means your a 3 hit wonder and anyone with a pool of 12 to 15 dice and a limit of 4+ will out perform you most of the time. So perceptive defender is really only good if you have great perception skill and a good mental limit to back it up. Most Sams dont have a great mental limit its some where in the 4 to 6 range for a typical street sam which means alot of guns can hit them as soon as they can get accuracy 7+ cause the Sam just cant keep enough hits. Acrobatic defender is a larger candidate for abuse as it uses the physical limit which is in the 8+ range for alot of sams. But lets face it, how useful is gymnastics? most characters are not trying to get gymnastics much higher the 3 or 4 for some basic competency when the limited usefulness of gymnastics comes up. Perception is a skill every runner needs and every runner can justify spending more Karma on it till its maxed.

[Triskavanski]

Of course you could be playing a dwarf street sam, and have your Will power all kinds of maxed out with just a few additions.