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Pistol Caliber Carbines

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Carpool

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« on: <06-13-14/1907:52> »
Right now, there are a few manufacturers (Kel-Tec, High-point and Magpul to name the big three) offering conversion kits to turn semi-automatic pistols into pisotl caliber carbines. How woudl such a kit work in Shadowrun? woudl it utilize the longarm skill or pistols?


Critias

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« Reply #1 on: <06-13-14/1927:12> »
I'd just call it a submachinegun, personally.

ve4grm

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« Reply #2 on: <06-13-14/1931:20> »
I'd just rule it as adding a folding or rigid stock to a pistol (which isn't usually allowed, but whatever, just make it more expensive). Added recoil compensation, but no other change.
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BetaCAV

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« Reply #3 on: <06-13-14/2254:50> »
It would also be reasonable to increase the range categories as well, perhaps averaging the old and new catgories...
Or you could just triple the ranges (H. Pistol:5/10/15/20 -> 15/30/45/60), making it more accurate at most ranges than a regular pistol without adding dice, without making it the equal of a "real" rifle. Whether it uses Longarms or Automatics is still up for debate, but I'd lean towards the former unless you started with a MP.

JimmyCrisis

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« Reply #4 on: <06-13-14/2327:53> »
The parts kit will need to include a new barrel and handgrip, as well as other bits and accessories (like springs, slide, whatnot).  I would charge half again the cost of the gun for the kit.  After that, treat it exactly like an SMG (range, accessories, skill use, etc.).

Carpool

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« Reply #5 on: <06-14-14/0030:22> »
But its not an automatic, so why would it be covered by the automatics skill? the kit just gives it a longer barrel and stock. its still a semiauto firearm firing a pistol caliber cartidge

Namikaze

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« Reply #6 on: <06-14-14/0035:51> »
I'd say Longarms then.  But first I have a question: why would anyone do this when there are very viable and effective SMGs and Assault Rifles out there for cheap?
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Emperors Grace

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« Reply #7 on: <06-14-14/0148:49> »
I'd vote for submachinegun as well, frankly.

Other than the lack of FA, it's kind of the whole idea of an SMG.

And I'd bet the kit lacks FA only due to certain legal issues. (Just guessing)

Critias

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« Reply #8 on: <06-14-14/0331:37> »
But its not an automatic, so why would it be covered by the automatics skill? the kit just gives it a longer barrel and stock. its still a semiauto firearm firing a pistol caliber cartidge
Because, within the abstraction of the game, that's where the weapon kind of falls.  Mechanically, what's the difference between firing a pistol-caliber carbine and firing what Shadowrun calls an SMG on semi-auto? 

There's already enough goofiness with weapon designations and the weird assortment of skills attached to them, IMO.  Creating a whole new class of weapon seems needless to me, when that basic idea -- a shoulder fired, stable, two-handed, pistol-caliber, weapon -- is already covered by SMGs or various pistols with existing modifications.

JimmyCrisis

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« Reply #9 on: <06-14-14/0513:22> »
But its not an automatic, so why would it be covered by the automatics skill? the kit just gives it a longer barrel and stock. its still a semiauto firearm firing a pistol caliber cartidge

The most reasonable answer I can give you is that the size of the weapon makes it an 'automatic'. 

You can shoot a machine pistol in semi-auto with the pistols skill or the automatics skill, but in every other case (semi auto assault rifle or SMG), you must use the Automatics skill, not the Longarms skill.  Furthermore, there are pistols, shotguns and sniper rifles that are capable of burst fire and some full auto shotguns, and they all use the pistol or longarms skill exclusively, respectively.  Furthermore, heavy weapons includes machineguns which are all just sized up assault rifles, assault cannons which amount to super-sniper rifles, as well as missile launchers, grenade launchers and other miscellany oddball weapons that don't fit.

It boils down to this: "Automatics" is a size class of firearm, being larger than a pistol and smaller than a sniper rifle or shotgun.  It's the size of firearm that's light and easy to use, quick to aim, and has moderate and controllable recoil.  More than that, modern SMGs are exactly as you describe - a longer barreled and stocked weapon firing a pistol cartridge - and they all have 'semi-auto' modes as well.

Primarily the reason your weapon skill should change is because you've changed how the weapon is designed to be held and fired.  No longer are you holding your pistol in a deathgrip with opposing push-pull of your hands and a rigid wrist lock to control recoil.  It's an entirely different skill to control a handgun through the firing process than a stocked weapon.

Does it make sense?  Hell no.  It's a game balance thing... and in my opinion, this bit of game balance isn't necessary. 

Primarily, the reason you'd break up the firearms skill into so many groups is to penalize characters who can't afford to be flexible and take them all.  Your deckers, mages, riggers and the like will only develop one firearms skill and suffer for their inflexibility.  They get pinned down by sniper fire, or end up going to the meet at the downtown nightclub unarmed because they can't bring their shotgun.  Something like that anyway.  Meanwhile the street samurai has at least two or three of these weapon skills and can switch to the appropriate level of firepower for any challenge. 

But even the street samurai doesn't have enough skills to just toss around.

In my opinion, all firearms should boil down to "Pistols" for any and all handguns (machine pistols, hold outs, laser pistols, some SMGs and gyrojets) and "Longarms" for anything with a stock (some other SMGs, assault rifles, snipers, shotguns and machinguns).  Weapon technique and training is fundamentally similar in either case, but the most difference is between handling stocked guns and pistols.  Grenade launchers, missile launchers and flame throwers can all be exotic weapons.  They each have their own unique training to use.  If we still want to make firing automatic weapons a special thing, we can make using burst fire and full auto a 'martial art' move for 7 karma, otherwise suffer the -3 'defaulting' penalty and lack of specialization.

But I'm not the one who wrote the game, so it is what it is.

Xenon

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« Reply #10 on: <06-14-14/0532:17> »
But its not an automatic, so why would it be covered by the automatics skill? the kit just gives it a longer barrel and stock. its still a semiauto firearm firing a pistol caliber cartidge
Because automatic skill covers all weapons that are larger than handheld pistols but smaller than rifles (SR5 p. 130). It is just a common miss-understanding that automatics skill have anything to do with burst or full auto firing modes.

The skill should probably be named Medium sized weapons instead for clarity... But then again, most weapons that are bigger than a handheld pistol but smaller than rifles often are automatics ;)



Personally they should just skip the automatics skill (or the medium sized weapons skill, whatever floats your boat) and  just use pistol skill for all weapon your hold with 1 hand and longarm skill for all weapons you hold with 2 hands (except  exotic and heavy weapons).
« Last Edit: <06-14-14/0536:57> by Xenon »

Ursus Maior

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« Reply #11 on: <06-14-14/0704:14> »
In SR weapons use skills by the group they belong to, not the fire-mode you use. Though the latter would be more logical to some. I guess it's just an abstract thing to do. It gets weird with weapons like the "assault rifle" Ultimax Rain Forest carbine, which is short barreld like an SMG and only fires SA, but not BF or FA though still is an assault rifle and uses the Automatics skill. But I guess I will houserule that simply.

When it comes to weapon modifications SR5 is really not that good, especially compared to SR3. I still don't get it, why there are no standard magazines of 20, 30 and 100 rounds. Or why the Run & Gun doesn't cover modding the firing modes of various weapons. But, I will have to houserule that as well, I guess. Colt M-23 semi-automatics should be available, I guess...
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Xenon

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« Reply #12 on: <06-14-14/0901:37> »
Anything larger than handheld pistols but smaller than rifles will use the Automatics skill.
If it helps, rename the "Automatics" skill to Medium sized weapon" skill.


... It gets weird with weapons like the "assault rifle" Ultimax Rain Forest carbine, which is short barreld like an SMG and only fires SA, but not BF or FA though still is an assault rifle and uses the Automatics skill.
It is a Carbine.
And Carbines are larger than handheld pistols but smaller than rifles so they will use the Medium sized weapon skill (or Automatics skill as it is called in SR5).

That it only come in semi-automatic and does not have burst fire or full auto firing modes have nothing to do with what skill you use...




You can have a small hold-out pistol with burst fire capabilities (such as Walther Palm Pistol), a light pistol with burst fire capabilities (such as Beretta 201T) or even a heavy pistol with burst fire capabilities (such as Ares Viper Slivergun) and still use the Pistol Skill and not the automatics (or medium sized weapon) skill. Why? Because they are not larger than handheld pistols but smaller than rifles.

You can fire Machine Pistols, Sub Machine Guns, Carbines and Assualt Rifles with semi-automatic fire and still use the Automatics (or medium sized weapon) skill. Why? because they are larger than handheld pistols but smaller than rifles.

The line between Pistol skill and Automatics (or medium sized weapon) skill goes right through machine pistols. You normally use machine pistols with automatics (or medium sized weapon) skill, but if you fire them with semi-automatic mode I think you are allowed to use the pistol skill.





But as i said earlier; I like it better to house rule away the entire automatics (or medium sized weapon) skill and draw the line right through sub machine guns instead. That way all weapons that you hold in one hand use pistol skill and all weapons that you use with two hands (except heavy weapons) use long arm skill. If you hold the SMG with one hand you use pistol skill. If you use two hands you can take advantage of the folding stock but now you use the longarm skill.

There are three issues with the current system that the house rule fix.
1) the medium sized weapon (or automatics) skill is to useful both at short and long range.
2) pistol skill is too narrow.
3) longarms skill is too narrow.

Reason why i like this house rule is because a weapon expert can get away by only having the medium weapon size (or automatics) skill as it give access to everything from easy to conceal machine pistols to heavy duty forbidden assault rifles with grenade launchers. With the house rule a weapon expert will probably want both pistol skill (for something concealable) as well as longarm skill (for some ranged firepower). Also, someone that want to focus on pistols would get access to some longer range weapons with machine pistols and smgs (held in one hand) and someone that focus on longarms would get access to some shorter barrel weapons that can easier be concealed such as smgs (held with two hands) but also carbines.
« Last Edit: <06-14-14/0917:45> by Xenon »

LionofPerth

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« Reply #13 on: <06-14-14/1047:28> »
Considering a Shadowrunners life, I think this could be a great addition to the game. Though if I'm honest, I with the above on calling it a SMG.

Please correct me if I am wrong, can't you suggest a skill to default to? In this instance, if you're shooting something that is properly braced against the shoulder, could not Long Arms apply to a certain degree here?

Bit of a stretch, considering you do have the Automatics skill, but potentially possible.
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PittsburghRPGA

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« Reply #14 on: <07-29-14/1559:47> »
I have shot the Hi Point and Keltec of these pistol caliber carbines.

The longer barrel does give a bit more accuracy at longer ranges, so a bump up to SMG range while using light or heavy pistol ammo seems about right.  And it handles about the same as my WASR10 semi-automatic AK clone.  Neither is a fully automatic weapon. 

The primary reason to do so in real life is that pistol ammo is typically cheaper than rifle ammo, and thus makes it more economical to practice.  Even an hour at the range training, and you can go through a good 200 rounds.  In Shadowrun, regular ammo is priced the same regardless of whether it's .22LR, 7.62x25mm, 9mm Parabellum, 9mm Makarov, .45ACP, .30-06, or .360 WSM.  It's just regular ammo. In real life, all of those cartridges have vastly different prices per round.

I promise that the non-gun nutz amongst you do not want the added complexity of having us gun nuts write "realistic" rules for firearms in SR.

Seriously, you REALLY don't want that. 

Eric