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Tactical Computers

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Lusis

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« on: <07-05-14/1725:51> »
How many of you guys used these in previous editions?

IMHO very cool fluff-wise but overly expensive. I'd love to make a 5e character with one but alas they seem to have gone out of style in the 2070s.

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Namikaze

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« Reply #1 on: <07-05-14/1812:59> »
4th edition was the one that introduced these devices.  They functioned very differently though, which justified how cheap they were by comparison.  The bonuses you get now are pretty unbalancing, or at least they are potentially very unbalancing.  To the point where a team with a level 2 tactical computer will probably wipe the floor with a team that has no tactical computer.

Another big difference is that you only buy the one tactical network.  In 4th edition, you had to buy the software for each person, which could make the costs very high on larger teams.  Additionally, the level of the software would have to increase for implementing more devices into the network.  5th edition simplifies all of this with a straightforward, simple approach.
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Ryo

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« Reply #2 on: <07-05-14/1817:59> »
4th edition was the one that introduced these devices.  They functioned very differently though, which justified how cheap they were by comparison.  The bonuses you get now are pretty unbalancing, or at least they are potentially very unbalancing.  To the point where a team with a level 2 tactical computer will probably wipe the floor with a team that has no tactical computer.

Really? How do you figure? I read the new Tac-Net rules in Run and Gun and was completely underwhelmed, and with the absurd price tag, I basically completely discarded them in the pile of things no group would ever bother to get, unless they managed to steal one from the corpses of their enemies.

4th edition Tac-Nets were crazy. Everybody had one and you could get like a +4 bonus to the entire party when they did just about anything. That was way more unbalancing, especially since it was quite affordable.

Namikaze

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« Reply #3 on: <07-05-14/1829:32> »
Once you get to the rank 2 PI-Tacs, every one of your team members (7 on the network) gets +1 to attacks, +2 to perception, +1 to stealth, automatic dosers of whatever drug you can imagine, a bonus of 2 (or 3, depending on interpretation) to the Firewall and Data Processing of the host device, and the ability to shift around Initiative Points.  That's pretty damn powerful.  The price is steep, but remember that you only have to buy it once and you aren't buying it based on the device rating.  So a team of 7 people in 4th edition had to buy 7 copies of the software, and it had to be at level 4 (12,000¥ per copy).  That's 84,000¥ by itself.  But you also had to have each team member contribute 8 data channels to the feed.  That part is where it got difficult and expensive.  Buying all those sensors would be very difficult - that's no longer necessary.
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Ryo

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« Reply #4 on: <07-05-14/1846:09> »
Once you get to the rank 2 PI-Tacs, every one of your team members (7 on the network) gets +1 to attacks, +2 to perception, +1 to stealth, automatic dosers of whatever drug you can imagine, a bonus of 2 (or 3, depending on interpretation) to the Firewall and Data Processing of the host device, and the ability to shift around Initiative Points.  That's pretty damn powerful.  The price is steep, but remember that you only have to buy it once and you aren't buying it based on the device rating.  So a team of 7 people in 4th edition had to buy 7 copies of the software, and it had to be at level 4 (12,000¥ per copy).  That's 84,000¥ by itself.  But you also had to have each team member contribute 8 data channels to the feed.  That part is where it got difficult and expensive.  Buying all those sensors would be very difficult - that's no longer necessary.

The only hard part was sensor channels, and really wasn't that hard. Slap a simrig in your helmet and you've already got 3 channels, 4 if you're not human, since low-light and thermo count as separate channels. Then get glasses or goggles with smartlink, ultrasound, and either low-light, thermo, or both if you don't already have one of them from your simrig, and you're up to 7. You're only 1 sensor channel short of the maximum bonus and you've only got gear that a lot of characters have anyway. (Players love them some alternative vision modes).

As for the cost, it's only 12k per copy of the software. For the maximum bonus of +4, you only need 6 people, which comes out to 72,000 nuyen. Which is only about 445,500 nuyen cheaper than the cheapest 5th edition tacnet, which does nothing except give the entire team +1 to perception. Even if you have a massive team, including a small army of drones, and are achieving all of the sensor channels with expensive separate sensors, you'd be hard pressed to spend anywhere near 517k in 4th edition, let alone 824k or 1.2 million.

Also, you could totally just have a centralized Tac-Net, and have everyone slave their gear to the hacker (which everyone is probably doing anyway in 4th, especially if he's a technomancer.) Then you're only paying 12k for one copy. And if you are a technomancer, you could even thread the complex form for nothing more than a bit of fading.

As for what it actually does, +1 to attacks (4th edition gave +4), +2 to perception (Again, +4), +1 to stealth (+4!), Automatic dosers of drugs (not explicitly allowed in 4th, but totally doable if one of your sensor channels is a biomonitor), Firewall/Data proccessing boost (Not in 4th), ability to shift initiative points (Also not in 4th)

So everything the 5th edition version does, 4th did better at a higher bonus for a cheaper price. The only exceptions are the Firewall/Data Processing boost, and the ability to hand out initiative. Those are interesting, but certainly not unbalancing, and absolutely not worth the six digit asking price.

Tac-Nets in 4th were broken and needed to be nerfed, but 5th just made them too expensive and too restricted to be all that useful. It might as well have been included in a GM only section of the book, because players will never get to use one.
« Last Edit: <07-05-14/1848:39> by Ryo »

Mirikon

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« Reply #5 on: <07-05-14/1912:10> »
When I look at the PI-Tacs in Run & Gun, I get the distinct impression that someone at Catalyst hated tac-nets, but couldn't find a good way to retcon them out of existence, so they basically slapped it down and said "You'll never ever get this, but it exists, so shut up and don't ask me to think about this again."
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Namikaze

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« Reply #6 on: <07-05-14/1915:34> »
I feel like getting a PI-Tac as a reward for a particularly challenging run is worthwhile to most runner teams.  Bonuses are few and far between in 5th edition, whereas penalties are all over the place.  The nuyen price is mostly commensurate with the perceived value, when you get to level 2 and level 3.  I do think the civilian model (level 1) should have been MUCH cheaper, especially as the fluff mentions that it sees use by hobbyists and such.  The way the price is now, only a professional Urban Brawl team would be able to afford it.  That would have given most players at least an entry point into the gear.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #7 on: <07-05-14/1933:01> »
Runs giving out 'bonuses' worth high six figures (some seven)? Sounds like raiding Lofwyr's sock drawer kind of runs. Even if you live long enough to get to the meet and collect your pay, you're probably going to get doublecrossed to silence loose ends. I could see what you're saying, Namikaze, if I couldn't buy a fleet of aircraft (not drones, actual aircraft) for less than the rating 1 PI-Tac.
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Ryo

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« Reply #8 on: <07-05-14/1949:48> »
Yeah, the price is just insane. Bonuses might be hard to come by, but they're not THAT hard to come by, and most of the dice pool bonuses you can get from the tac-net are easily acquired elsewhere, especially the level 1.

Any player I have come across one of these things, they'd just see the price tag and immediately fence the thing. Even if they just dump it on a contact for a no-questions-asked quick buck, they're looking at a profit of between 25,875 and 155,250 nuyen for a Level 1 PI-Tact, depending on the Loyalty of the contact. If they're hard pressed for that +1 Perception, they can all feel free to pick up some Visual Enhancement glasses at the nearest mall.

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« Reply #9 on: <07-05-14/2146:25> »
Yeah.  What gets me too is that 5th edition's PI-Tacs have a couple "general features" that are almost entirely redundant.  It mentions biomonitors, weapon condition and ammo amounts, sharing sensory channels, perception bonuses, and GPS location software.

Aside from GPS locations (which is not terribly necessary and a big double-edged sword if you get hacked), and the fact that you would need to buy basic vision enhancers to get perception bonuses...  The rest are already doable without even needing a commlink.  Unless the PI-Tac makesno sense you'd assumably need a biomonitor (which can just be wireless and read by your allies), have your weapon set to wireless (which all weapons can do and again can just be shared with allies), and have any sensors or your simrig wireless (which, AGAIN, means you can already share it with whoever you want).

Sucks.  I've said it before, but I was really hoping to get to do the TM thing in 5th edition where I program-on-the-fly my own TacNet.  Not for any special benefits mechanically, just because then, flavor-wise, it could look however I want and it'd be fun for roleplaying purposes.  Like "Firebug, I do not appreciate that your network marks me as the team's 'mojogogo'."
« Last Edit: <07-05-14/2149:49> by firebug »
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Lusis

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« Reply #10 on: <07-07-14/1907:43> »
Yeah I'm more interested in the idea of a tactical "mentat" that can stay one step ahead of his foes, even though he might not be wired or awakened.
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Kincaid

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« Reply #11 on: <07-08-14/0902:34> »
The writer of 5e TacNets mentioned in a podcast that he based the prices off of cyberdecks.  Given the long-standing problems of upgrading cyberdecks mid-campaign through normal (ie, non-larcenous) means, it essentially puts them out of reach for most runner teams.
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martinchaen

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« Reply #12 on: <07-08-14/0921:35> »
To me, this is one of those items that a team can plan an entire set of runs to acquire, just like the better cyberdecks ingame issue...

Csjarrat

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« Reply #13 on: <07-08-14/1646:32> »
To me, this is one of those items that a team can plan an entire set of runs to acquire, just like the better cyberdecks ingame issue...
I just don't see why you'd bother. The bonuses are meh for the most part and it's probably easier to make money nicking other items instead of looting corpses of megacorp HTR teams
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Namikaze

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« Reply #14 on: <07-08-14/1648:00> »
The writer of 5e TacNets mentioned in a podcast that he based the prices off of cyberdecks.  Given the long-standing problems of upgrading cyberdecks mid-campaign through normal (ie, non-larcenous) means, it essentially puts them out of reach for most runner teams.

That's troubling.  Tacnets shouldn't be as available as they were in 4th edition, but they are really unattainable now.  I can see making the level 2 and 3 tacnets difficult to acquire, but level 1 should be easy enough that anyone with a decent bankroll can get one.
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