[KagedShadow]

Hi all,

I've got the ball rolling on a SR5 campaign - we've done two minor runs (Chasin' the Wind & ManHunt - minor spoiler alert) and one major one (homebrew, 3 part datasteal, assassination and datasteal plus extraction) - my team is 4, one mystic adept assassin / cov op specialist, one face / gun bunny, one adept hacker and one street samurai. The campaign is going, but we are quickly coming  to the conclusion that melee is really useless compared to guns... our gun bunny / face is an ex Ares Weapons Dealer, and has at least one of each type of firearm (including both a rocket launcher and a grenade launcher), our hacker has good skills with automatics and the cov ops has a little fire magic to throw round. Bad guys are simply not getting anywhere near the team....

...in Manhunt, the gun bunny and the cov ops setup shop on the gun tower in the middle of the compound - one sniper rifles (cov ops) and one machine gun (gun bunny) with tripod meant the early waves got butchered before they got anywhere near the fence - the hacker was on a silo with a tripod for his AK-97 laying down supressive fire etc....

...in Chasin the Wind, going to the Labs to discover the dead doc, the team split up, with the gun bunny setting up an overwatch outside, so that when the street gang I had added for an ambush as the team came out simply got blasted away

...in part of my homebrew run, I sent the team into the sewers beneath the CZ, where a trio of Feral Ghouls (been playing Dragon Fall) came running at them, but the group heard them, so just waited for them to round the corner and blew them away....

It just seems that if the team think carefully about how they approach a situation, they rarely need to get involved in melee combat - and that goes for the NPCs as well - if the team is pouring out bullets, they are not gonna suicide charge across open ground to engage the team in melee when they can use cover and return fire?

So our poor Street Samurai really doesn't contribute to combat - his specialist area - me and him are currently working on diversifying his character so he can offer more to the team outside of combat, but still, are we missing something obvious that makes melee worth it, as a primary focus of a character?

Cheer All
KS

[Namikaze]

I'd say that your team is doing their jobs.  Perhaps too well.  Increase the Sneaking dice pools for tests, apply penalties liberally, and then try again.  The key there is applying the penalties.  In the case with the feral ghouls, you could have been justified in applying detection penalties due to echoes, sloshing movement of the team through water, or even an abundance of rats squeaking.

[Critias]

A well-built melee character is dangerous as hell...if they get into melee.  Folks that swing their character in that direction tend to be very, very, good at it, and the new damage codes (not halving Strength) make all kinds of metahumans more nasty in a scrap (and that's saying nothing of the mind-numbing terror that is a feral ghoul attack, due to the disease/infection, not just their actual melee ability).  The thing is, it's 2075, not 1075, so the tricky part is, as you've discovered, getting close.

It's possible.  And if someone built right DOES get in close, it's likely to turn into a one-shot, glass-cannon, sort of scene;  folks can drop a LOT of damage in melee, especially if they're being unsubtle about their weapon choice. 

[Marcus]

I think its great that your players are thinking ahead. But if they are dividing the party then your work more then half done. Time to get tricky
You got a gunbunny on over watch? Well a Medium force spirit materializing right on top her/him, should give him/her a little something to think about. Combine that with some folks moving in and ya got a brawl on your hands.
Getting into melee is very possible. It just takes some working at it. But that's not really the goal, you want them to challenge them, make'em work for that win. Next time they go around in sewers, have'em walk into an ambush instead of the other way around. Even if ya can't get the surprised round off, having to roll those quick draw tests will add a level of tension to the mix.  Good teamwork and good builds count for a lot, but unlimited resources, and the fact that reinforcements can always show up counts for a  lot more. The environment can always get a little target richer. Quantity has quality all its own.

[MadBear]

I have an Orc Sammie with a Ruger Superwarhawk, at 9p DV, and a fist that does 10p DV. And that's just a fist, swords, katanas, and axes do a LOT more.  My GM is fully aware of the advantage fire arms have, and plans his games accordingly. We rarely if ever are able to set up a situation where assault riffles come into play, and god forbid we try to use a sniper rifle.
Rule #3 of Shadowrunning, things never go as planned. Don't count on those firearms you gotta have a back up. A knife, unarmed, even a sword, all make a lovely backup for when things don't go as planned.
And finally, have you ever tried to sneak an assault riffle into a high security area? I don't even try. But my Ceramic Bone Laced fists? Yeah, those come with me everywhere. I'm never unarmed.

[silentninjadesu]

Melee can be super effective, but you have to build for it. My strength 10, body 10 troll has a pain editor and titanium bone lacing. She has brushed off a a grenade to the face, and has to use shock glove to prevent one hit kills.

If you want to get your melee guy to be more effective encourage him to do stealth take downs. Guns are the opposite of sneaky. But also increasing his ability to take damage can help in big fight scenes. Pain editors, bone lacing, dermal plating can all help you sure you live long enough to kill someone.

[Tarislar]

Just something to toss in there, but if a melee type wants some range w/o going guns,  I'm finding the Throwing skill is very very nice in 5E.

Shuriken/Spikes Etc etc, do loads more damage w/o the 1/2 STR issue just like most smaller knives now, & well, nothing says love like Grenades, and being able to toss them w/o using the Hvy Weps skill is nice.
It requires some STR, but I find Thowing to be a nice compromise skill, roughly between Pistols & Heavy Weapons in terms of Concealment + Firepower.

[silentninjadesu]

Oh, yeah, and archery is strength based too! And don 't forget running.  The  faster you get to the target the fewer bullets you have to soak.

Edit: Sorry, I keep thinking of more ideas. I love melee!

Have an enemy hacker sabotage your groups guns. Can't hack a sword. Have the guns get confiscated or do a run in japan. Swords are legal.

[Blazrath]

Well, everyone seems to get the help for player to get the melee type people into the fight more often. Let me give a couple of ideas for the ST. Buildings are extremely claustrophobic, more so when you try to bring in big guns and such. Anyone that plays Battlefield or Call of Duty would know that the machine gun or most Assault Rifles are not the best course of action when fighting through an office cubicle. Penalties for using weapons larger than a submachine gun should be encouraged, if houseruled and lots of cover bonuses. It'll make people using their decked out AK 97 think its best for pistols and hand to hand. Same type of problem could happen to them in heavy traffic. Lots of cars, lots of gooey civilians that bleed quickly, lots of cover. If the players care about humanity, they will try not to do a shoot out unless absolutely sure they will hit them and not an innocent. If they do not care, then remind them that the cops will be looking for them on murder rap.

Then if they go into places that are more open, give them a moving wall of Ballistics Shields coming straight at them decked out in armor. While its not the best by itself, why not add more armor to the people next to the guys. Call it a wall of death effect, where they can't get a shot in normal conditions until they are broken apart. Something a melee based character playing smartly could do with fun. Or a grenade. But you don't always have a grenade.

Caverns, subways, overgrown gardens, woods, grape rows, corn field, etc. As you can see, stretching the limit of what is possible, but you get the idea.

[Glyph]

Close quarters combat should definitely come up more - being alert, alone, shouldn't stop people from getting into melee range.  Melee is still a niche role, though.  If this is a beginning campaign with new-ish PCs, you might want to allow the players to tweak/fix their characters a bit (I hear this recommended a lot, and I agree with it).  A combat-oriented character without a good ranged skill is definitely a PC with a major weakness.

[Reaver]

There is a reason why firearms replaced melee weapons as the armament of choice for militaries

But that doesn't melee is useless, it means the melee fighter has to work harder to control the battlefield to his advantage.

[Namikaze]

I had a player make a troll physical adept with a katana and a combat shield.  Oh, and lots of Magic Resistance power/qualities.  I had a HELL of a time bringing him down.  Once I explained to the player that his character was out of balance with the others, and they were going to die as a result, he voluntarily stepped down.  But the in-game rationale was that as a follower of Bear, he couldn't stand the potential for accidentally harming an innocent in a rage.  So I gave him a fighting pit and let him have fun there. 

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

It also sounds like you aren't setting up situations for the melee individual to shine.  There are any number of groups - Aztlan/Aztechnology's warrior groups, the samurai of various corporations, etc. - for whom a personal challenge takes precedence, especially if it takes the place of something more bloody and liable to cause lots of destruction - 'our guy beats your guy, we walk, your guy beats our guy, we surrender' kind of thing.   A KS in corporate security would help there, and if the samurai doesn't have that knowledge, he should.

Also, it sounds like your PCs are doing a lot of 'outdoors' runs, being able to carry the big guns, set up with clear fields of fire, all that sort of thing.  This isn't a bad thing, but it also ... well, it isn't the meat and potatoes of the high-quality runner, as it were.  Set up a situation where they're going to have to leave the big toys behind, where they might be able to bring along a pistol, but where using an unsilenced weapon - what, you thought they were going to let you actually carry a silencer on your weapon?? - is gonna mean everything is blown.  Maybe it's that top-end corporate party, with the sixty bodyguards mixing with the guests.  Maybe that's the zero-zone compound where you absolutely have to infiltrate masquerading as a corporate team member - and NOT as a member of corporate security, thank you.  Maybe that's the granola-and-free-love hippie encampment where guns are so verboten that the very spirits of the place prevent them from entering, or maybe there's just an 'anti-bullet-barrier' of some sort - bring in all the guns you want, but bullets are another story.

Marcus is right in that if they're splitting the group, you have prime opportunities for close-quarters-combat to take place.  If you're doing anything inside buildings, ditto.  Use Run and Gun; use disarm.  Use a CQ combatant against them - whether that's a spirit, a sneaky adept, a samurai with a friendly mage's invisibility, or just someone who can cover 40m/Turn at a minimum without even sprinting.  Put them into situations in which getting out the guns is a bad idea, or simply not possible.  Make them long for the silenced hold-out, for the climbing claws with a chemical gland, for the Narcoject dartgun pistol.

Also, I only semi-agree with silentninjadesu - while yes, you do have to 'build for' on the melee front, remember that you have to hit in order to have an effect.  With the right combination of skill and gear, your Agility combatant is going to put the Power combatant into the ground every time, often without breaking a sweat.  Don't forget shock weapons or especially the Useful Chemicals front.

Melee is specialized, yes, but no more than decking, or magic, or face-time.  Oh, it's easy for someone to pick up some sort of Firearms (and in fact they'd be stupid NOT to) and be reasonably competent and doing scads of damage if they waste enough ammunition, but a melee combatant needs to know what the hell they're doing when they step up to the plate - just like the decker, or the mage, or the face.  If you give the previous three time to shine, you should do the same for the up-close-and-personal fella.

[KagedShadow]

great feedback folks

The sewer section I intentionally put in for the melee character (who then promptly missed the session...)

Am I missing penalties tho - as it feels like once the melee has finally closed with his target, the target - wielding a firearm - isn't at a huge disadvantage - also, though I haven't used them yet - I feel the knockdown rules due to damage > phys limit would make it even harder to advance under fire (This is our 1st SR campaign as a group and we completely under-estimated the importance of the phys limit...)

Not to mention Defence penalties burst/full-auto lays inflicts on victims, making the gun damage even greater....

I'd also say that our melee guy isnt optimised - the player just doesn't care much for rules - he has an adrenaline pump (R2) and a pain editor, both of which I would bet he's never used, and as I'm still new to SR too, I can't track his character + gear when running combats.

as to no guns - the snatch and switch they pulled on a subway in Chicago had no weapons apart from a couple of nausea grenades they smuggled in...and the face / gunbunny then went solo into the research labs under a physical mask impersonating a doctor

The team are very happy to avoid conflict whenever possible - i'm preparing Critic's Choice <spoiler alert> atm for next week and I'm 99% sure that the team will bypass and take an alternate route for the Fleshmonger encounter early on - they are not 'good guys' and they won't be getting paid for it....

One last bit - we use spellcasting but nothing more atm, as its not something we have explored (I come from cyberpunk 2020 and william gibson novels...) so I'm not throwing spirits etc at them yet - I need to start throwing in more mages into npc opponents too...

[GrimWulf]

Am I missing penalties tho - as it feels like once the melee has finally closed with his target, the target - wielding a firearm - isn't at a huge disadvantage 

If you have a melee specialist character get into melee combat with a ranged specialist. The ranged should be going down. And there are plenty of ways to get into melee. (In the middle of a fire fight isn't typically one of them) (what is the unarmed combat skill of the ranged specialist? that can be a quick loss of 4-8 dice in the opposed test)

A melee specialist knows that he/she is at a disadvantage in a firefight, and will typically strike from stealth or do something else prior to combat to close the distance. While screaming bloody murder while you cross a battlefield, sword held high above you while dodging bullets might sound awesome, in reality as you've stated is doesn't work.

So if you want more melee, bunch them up, make those heavy weapons useless. Heck, take all the weapons away. They go for a meet in a secured location. No seeing the Johnson if they have guns.  The meet was either a setup from the Johnson, or someone choose that time to hit the Johnson and the characters find themselves without their toys. But that steak knife on the table is still deadly in the hands of a melee specialist.

Likewise a ranged character should own a melee character if in a firefight. 

Oh sidenote.  The Sam may not have wanted to fight those ghouls anyways.  With the chance of getting infected so high, even if he kicked ass he may have ended up losing his character anyways.  (although I'm not actually sure how this is handled in 5th ed to be honest)