[eviltikiman]

So im a new GM running a group for a bunch of newbies, and one of my players, who wanted to use Shotguns for close quarter dominance. However they are unconvinced that they are of any real use, because rifles are superior in just about every way. Do you find this to be true? what is the function of the shotgun? Are they really good at close quarters?  Does it fill any larger role or is little more than a nitch weapon? Please help!!!!!!!!

[Lusis]

Clearing rooms and close combat with moving targets.

In RL, semi-auto shotguns with custom chokes were used by MACV-SOG teams in Vietnam to effectively clear rooms, including barracks packed with soldiers, before a defense could be mounted.  Of course,  the ballistic armors of the SR world change things a bit.

[Xenon]

Shotguns loaded with shot ammo (+2 DV, +5 AP) give you the choke and spread game mechanic which let you hit multiple targets without splitting your dice pool and with a negative dice pool modifier to their defense pool at the cost of lower damage values and reduced armor penetration. Mostly useful against a few low armored targets (high risk of just dealing stun damage against armored targets) that stand within a few meters of each other.

Compared to using a shotgun loaded with Slugs you can, game mechanic wise in SR5, walk around with a Sniper Rifle (or switch to a the medium sized weapon skill, aka automatics skill, and use Assault Rifles) - even for close range combat. This will be superior in just about any situation compared to using a shotgun.

Biggest reason to use a shotgun is because they look cool and might fit your character concept.

[Carpool]

Also, a shotgun loaded with EX-X Ammunition is damned near an assault cannon for terms of sheer damage output, as well ass the variety of ammunition a shotgun can load, (more true in 4th edition then currently)

[Novocrane]

IIRC, (afb) the wording on AP is that it counts for targets wearing armour. That makes unarmoured characters valid targets for dealing high damage and ignoring AP, as well as most critters.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Yeah, if they're not wearing armor, they don't suddenly acquire it just because you fired a load of buckshot at them.

eviltikiman, shotguns really are the boss for close-quarters work.  There are no formal disadvantages to slinging a 4'6" rifle around in close quarters, but as GM, you should penalize the dumb sonofabitch who tries.  Shotguns are the way to go.

[eviltikiman]

Im open to any recommendations on what kind of penalties to apply.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Do a forum search for shotguns and rifles.  There's a couple with suggestions, one fairly recent.

[Xenon]

SR5 p. 165 Armor Penetration
Some weapons fare poorly against armor, and so actually raise the value of the armor. If the target is not wearing armor, this bonus does not apply.

[Valkyrie]

In my home game, I adjust the close combat shooting penalties.  My Missions character never has a reason not to use her sniper rifle, even with an enemy right in her face, and that's slightly dumb.  I felt that larger weapons would be trickier to use when someone is in your face, so I changed the penalties as follows (I gave shotguns some breathing room, though, since they require less precision to hurt one's foe):

Tasers and Holdouts are not penalized
Light pistols suffer only -1
Heavy Pistols and Shotguns suffer -2
Machine Pistols and Submachine guns get -3
Assault Rifles suffer -4
Non-Shotgun Longarms and Heavy Weapons suffer -5 (don't bring a sniper rifle to a fistfight)

[Xenon]

Another rule could be that in every Initiative Pass you move while you are considered Running you first have to spend a Simple Action to Ready Weapon before you can fire Assault Rifles, Sniper Rifles or Heavy Weapons.

[LionofPerth]

Another rule could be that in every Initiative Pass you move while you are considered Running you first have to spend a Simple Action to Ready Weapon before you can fire Assault Rifles, Sniper Rifles or Heavy Weapons.

Can't say I'm a fan of that.

In my mind, if you're readying a weapon, it's something heavy, big, sniper rifle, LMG, rocket launcher, etc. It's not just point and shooting, it's about aiming the weapon, adjusting your position to properly brace yourself for the recoil. It's about the final steps to actually fire the weapon.

Personally I'd look more towards.... an initiative bonus of some sort for having a proper weapon ready. An initiative penalty for not having an appropriate weapon ready. It's something that's hard to explain simply. If you've got a shotgun for very close ranges, I'd give you a slight bonus, you're naturally able to move and react faster. They're designed for faster movement and targeting.

Slower weapons, you take a bit longer, hope that armour can soak some damage for you as you take a hit or two, from those with pistols and the training for close quarter combat. So, most of the time you might be fine, those response teams, high level guards, the odd hobby shooter. It's a little more GM's call than anything else, but what isn't in this game?

[Xenon]

In my mind, if you're readying a weapon...

If you are readying a pistol you go from Holstered to Ready.
If you are readying a larger weapon (assault rifle, sniper rifle, LMG) you go from Sling Ready or Low Ready to Ready (a weapon that you for example carry in a bag would take more than a Simple action to Ready).

http://firearmshistory.blogspot.ca/2012/03/shooting-positions-ready-positions.html

...and adepts with the Rapid Draw power (from R&G) can spend a Free action (rather than a Simple action) to Ready larger weapon (assault rifle, sniper rifle, LMG) from Low Ready to Ready.


To make smaller weapons more mobile in CQB I argue that if you move while considered running with a larger weapon (assault rifle, sniper rifle, LMG) you no longer brace the weapon against your shoulder with the finger on the trigger and need to [again] brace the weapon to your shoulder and put the finger on the trigger (= Ready Weapon simple action).

[Lusis]

As far as CQB with long guns go, in RL the main issue with them is corners and the ability to shift (redirect) fire quickly to counter threats coming from the side. A LMG set up at the ens of a hall can kill everything in it's cone of fire; but, try to clear a room with one where you have to swing it around quicly and you lose the initiative vs. Short-barreled weapons.

[Mirikon]

Shotguns are my favorite weapon for snipers to take as a close-quarters weapon, since it works on the same skill. I typically always get a shotgun with the clip or drum loading mechanism, for reload speed, if nothing else. A shotgun provides relatively high damage at a low cost, and the legalities are often lower than assault rifles. Using flechettes is a good way for a low-initiative or low-skill character to engage multiple opponents at once, and for high skill, high initiative users, it has some advantage over SnS or gel rounds if you need to clear a room, but not necessarily kill everyone, since most people with any armor (even a lined coat) stand a good chance of only taking Stun damage. I mention low-initiative, low-skill characters, because I often use a shotgun for my face or hacker/TM characters, since it has clear benefits over a pistol, and it is hard to justify anything bigger with just a 2 skill, for instance.

So, pros and cons. For a sammy? Go with an assault rifle, definitely, and use the shotgun only if you need a Masterkey. For someone who does most of their work in the social or matrix arenas? You could do FAR worse than using a shotgun. For mages? A shotgun or other weapon goes a long way towards convincing people you aren't a mage, especially if you don't go around with arcane symbols on your lined coat or wearing traditional shaman gear, etc. Convincing people you aren't a mage (until you start slinging spells) means you go further down the 'to geek' list than the troll with the assault cannon. It'll only last a couple passes, but that's still worlds better than getting geeked first, right?