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Losing Essence

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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #15 on: <09-04-14/0025:05> »
LoP, I think you're kind of looking for a cyber-caused bloodbath.  I mean, think about it - if people start treating you as a piece of furniture or portable electronics, bumping into you, ignoring you, and whatever, you're gonna get pissed.  If you have that low of essence, it's probably because you have a big bunch of combat implants.  Which means they're casually bumping into and ignoring a self-directed killing machine who, because he doesn't have a firm tie to humanity, might be liable to simply kill them for ignoring him.

The social hit for a low essence, especially a visibly low essence (which not all individuals have), seems to me to play into that 'yyyeah, sure, Mr. Wired-Up Guy'.  Back in SR1 and SR2, the group in which Mary Kuhner (author of the Jayhawk fiction - I HIGHLY recommend it) examined this issue from the point of view of not only cyberware, but magic as well.  Increased amounts of psychological issues came from being able to do things ordinary people couldn't - see things they couldn't, summon spirits, lift cars, sprint faster than a cheetah, that sort of thing.

At the core of it, you gained 1 point worth of psychological issues for every 0.25 Essence you lost, every natural point above 6 of attribute you had, or every quarter-point of Magic you possessed.  If your metatype had enhancements of some sort, you treated those as though they were adept abilities, going off how much Magic you would be required to use to gain them.  (0.25 for most stuff.)  Someone with a very low Essence - or a very high Magic!! - had either several very severe psychological issues (3-4 running at 5-8 points) or numerous less-severe problems (5-8 at 3-4 points).  In SR5, you could do something similar, and thus make minimizing your magic or cyber/bioware something players might really want to consider ...
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8-bit

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« Reply #16 on: <09-04-14/0131:08> »
At the core of it, you gained 1 point worth of psychological issues for every 0.25 Essence you lost, every natural point above 6 of attribute you had, or every quarter-point of Magic you possessed.  If your metatype had enhancements of some sort, you treated those as though they were adept abilities, going off how much Magic you would be required to use to gain them.  (0.25 for most stuff.)  Someone with a very low Essence - or a very high Magic!! - had either several very severe psychological issues (3-4 running at 5-8 points) or numerous less-severe problems (5-8 at 3-4 points).  In SR5, you could do something similar, and thus make minimizing your magic or cyber/bioware something players might really want to consider ...

This is an interesting idea, but seems like a really easy way to screw up a character or penalize them unnecessarily. I personally believe that low Essence characters should play up that fact; they think the body is weak, or that everyone else is inferior, or that they can do anything because of their 'ware. That should be the player's decision. If you pile up 5 disorders or 2 super severe disorders, you're character shouldn't even be able to Shadowrun. Someone will notice, and it won't be long before the heavily armed people take you down and either kill you to get it over with, or take you off to get all your 'ware removed and put you in an insane asylum. Or, in the case of magic, sit you on top of a prison with a background count of 10+ and/or install a lot of useless used 'ware into you to burn you out. There are times when you need to be able to function in society without everybody realizing you are insane. If a player wants a (semi, or not) insane character, that's their choice. But purposely punishing them by stacking psychological disorder upon psychological disorder on them is a really quick way to make the character not only unwanted by a player, but unplayable for fluff reasons.

Maybe if lower than 3 Essence suggest having some sort of superiority complex or disorder, whatever the player chooses. That seems a little more fair. If someone wants to add more, then they can. Or possibly convert some qualities from SR4's Augmentation for roleplaying reasons, turning BP into some amount of Karma. The player should be awarded for creating a character with a disorder that can get them caught and quite likely killed. Those negative qualities (the personality ones) are fantastic for roleplaying, but mechanically and roleplay-wise, it does endanger a player.

For magic users, suggest a prejudice of some sort. Magic is a little harder, since it is much more diverse, that's something to work out with the player. I still wouldn't pile disorders on them for deciding to play a magic user; something that is very useful and dare I say, necessary for Shadowrunning.

Long story short, I like your idea, but it seems super harsh. My suggestions are just to tone it down a bit.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #17 on: <09-04-14/0206:50> »
Well, this was before Qualities; a lot of the NQs can be interpreted as this sort of thing.
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LionofPerth

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« Reply #18 on: <09-04-14/0749:16> »
Wyrm, this would come in no more than once, twice a session. It's meant to be minor and it's meant to be something that's a very definite reaction of the world to the player's choice, path. If they want to keep going down the road, it will get worse. It will be noticed and they will need to show some dedication, certainty in their choice. If they don't want to continue, it's up to them. Perhaps even working on trying to reverse it in some way, if it exists at all.

If they do go on a rampage, I hope they can deal with Lone Star, Knight Errant and any of the corps who are out for them as well.
When in doubt, C4.

Critias

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« Reply #19 on: <09-05-14/1029:56> »
LoP, I mean this in the nicest, most constructive way possible, but I've gotta say -- I feel like if I was trying to run an ork or troll street samurai in your game, I might just walk.

You've made up your mind in advance to give all these extra disadvantages to a couple specific types of characters -- mundanes with a lot of chrome, and orks and trolls -- above and beyond what's already mechanically in the setting (charisma modifiers, social limit modifiers, etc)...and I think it'd be awful frustrating to be blindsided by all this, just because I tried to play some of the classic archetypical "tough guy" characters in the setting.  Between this and the racism thread, all I can say is I really hope you're up front about all this (not just "I give a vague warning, and then I drop the hammer on 'em"), and about all the extra penalties and stuff you're slapping on.  I'd hate to get blindsided by all this.

If you just want a group full of elven, dwarven, and human mages, then good job, 'cause brother it really feels like that's what you're steering your players towards.
« Last Edit: <09-05-14/1149:55> by Critias »

LionofPerth

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« Reply #20 on: <09-05-14/1233:39> »
LoP, I mean this in the nicest, most constructive way possible, but I've gotta say -- I feel like if I was trying to run an ork or troll street samurai in your game, I'd just fucking walk.

You've made up your mind in advance to give all these extra disadvantages to a couple specific types of characters -- mundanes with a lot of chrome, and orks and trolls -- above and beyond what's already mechanically in the setting (charisma modifiers, social limit modifiers, etc)...and I think it'd be awful frustrating to be blindsided by all this, just because I tried to play some of the classic archetypical "tough guy" characters in the setting.

If you just want a group full of elven, dwarven, and human mages, then good job, 'cause brother it really feels like that's what you're steering your players towards.

Then I would suggest that we have two different values for role playing games, that my personal preference for a more.... simulationist attitude is not what you need or want in a game. I don't see anything wrong with that.

If there's anything I do have an issue with is that it could be read that your post is in effect, I'm running the game wrong, because I don't want to support you, playing your way. That, dare I use the words, running things wrong. That because you can't see it, I'm abusing the nature of the game, stopping my players from doing what they want. Being an arse-hat GM because I can.

The way I see the world, if not the people in it, is one I can justify, many a discussion on a very philosophical level has given me the position I take. In my mind, I can't justify not having stronger reactions to cyberwear, it implies a choice to give up what it means to be metahuman, a link to the very world. There needs to be a very different cost it to, more than what the system suggests is appropriate. In a world which is equal parts magic and technology, there has to be something tangible, something that you can never quite prove, but link strongly. That's my goal with one part of, that being that people need more effort to notice them. That as they give up more and more of their soul, there is fundamentally less of them, it's harder to be noticed, they're more distant to the world, colours dimmer, music less inspiring, art harder to understand, appreciate. That one some level, everyone, even the mundanes, are aware of magic on a deep, instinctual level. Somehow they're tied in to this magic gestalt entity, energy, for good or ill even I don't know. How else could things like dragons be possible?

I'd suggest that the stable gene pool (In so far as it is stable while still providing sufficient reason to produce the mutations required to produce the sensitivity and/or potential to access magic, resonance) required to produce adepts, technomancers and mages would require this, at least on a marco scale. Then again, that level of biology, genetics is not an interest of mine, it's a field I follow only as required.

In fact the group only has one magic user, two heavily cybered up sam's, one's a troll, the other I believe is human. The final one is an adept/sneak, more sneak if I'm honest. The very point of this game world is that everything has its costs, you Run the Shadows and the best you can do is hope you don't pay the costs with your life. You find other ways to pay that bill. If you need to sell people out, you make sure that cost doesn't get back to you. You find others to pay it for you, make sure it isn't too high in the first place.

I'll be honest, I may bring a certain, anti-augmentation bias to this game. I'd rather see players be smart, use the assets and contacts they have, subcontract jobs out, avoid trouble at all costs. One piece of advice I will give them is keep two go bags, one if they're on a run, the other if the run goes wrong. My players will help me set the tone of the game, if they want to just keep augmenting themselves, they will pay the price for it. As the book lists and more subtle ones as well. Not only that, there will be bad reactions to wizards, the more out there something is, the more the world will push back against it. Racism, supernatural abilities, correct me if I am wrong, but has not Egypt in the game setting effectively outlawed magic in its entirety?

This is not a happy setting, it's not even a neutral setting. It's a meat grinder of a setting. The nicest people you meet are the ones who simply don't care about you at all. If you're playing it as anything other, you really don't know just how bad it is. All of the data that's collected would have given the Stasi a wet dream, a full month of them. Runners can't be stupid, yet some of the community reactions to it are that it is exactly that. The corps are borderline criminal organisations at best, if not worse. You can count on the mafia, to do and be things are in their interest. The corps not only do that, but actively support each other in doing so. They are each others biggest clients. One of them even uses nerve agents as a basic security measure and is not censured for it. It's consider their thing and they're given free reign to do it.

Hell, they openly wage a shadow war against each other, to stop one of them getting enough power to upset the balance. That for each project that does succeed, dozens if not hundreds fail due to the act of Runners. They wilfully keep a significant portion (over 60% I'd suggest, maybe even as high as 80%) of the population in poverty, enforce a class based society that values wealth and employment over all other things. If you're on the out you can never get in, about the only thing I know of that's that nasty is the caste system in India. Corruption and double dealing are very likely at epidemic levels, if not pandemic levels. If I've gotten the order of epidemic and pandemic right.

If I'm really blunt about cyberwear and augmentation, it's a cheap and silly way to play the game. It's a spiral, you do your Runs to make money, so you get more, better cyberwear. You get better at Running and to keep it up, you get more expensive and better cyberwear. It's a trap and it means if you ever get to the point of wanting to retire that character from Running, they've either got to go down to the civilian grade stuff, or forever explain how they managed to end up with some much top of the line gear.

Add in the fact, if I was to really be a bastard, I would require those with cyberwear to not only update it's software, firmware, I would also have some very intrusive and malicious code put into said cyberwear, so that if it was ever used against it manufacturer, it would be able to be identified as having been on said run, date, time, location, but would actively act as a means of the corp to gather intelligence on that Runner. If not, enough proof to either dump them in a black prison or recover the cyberwear, permanently.

Now, with the last comments, would you willingly cut off a piece of fully functional and other wise normal flesh, for something that possesses more risks, is vunerable to electronic attack, both information warfare/hacking and EMP? I wouldn't and I challenge that anyone with half a brain, under those circumstances, would also do the same. While the chrome steet sam is a classic and a viable choice in most games, it involves a level of risk that I think most would find unacceptable. If anything, I have a concern I'm actually giving the people of the the world too much credit, that while you can have custom firmware written, schematics to search for the bugs, remove the hard drives, the corps are always going to be one step ahead.

At least, if you're familiar with some of the spying antics of the Cold War, like the US leaking plans of fighters, systems to the Soviets with notable design flaws placed in them, so the Soviets would build an inferior product. I can't see why the corps wouldn't try to fake out the Running community like this. All of this is before i actively discuss the idea that the Runner is in fact, a violent criminal. Even the books seem to back me up on this.

So, again, I think I run a style and type of game that would not interest you. I don't find anything wrong with that. What I would question is what you're looking for in a game and try to offer a suggestion as to where you might find that. I would question your assumptions about the game you think I'm planning on running, there seem to be some assumptions made that I can't quite work out, understand where you're coming from.
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Critias

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« Reply #21 on: <09-05-14/1240:12> »
Yeah, I really don't need a two-page lecture on how the setting works, thanks, I'm pretty familiar with it.

All I'm saying is -- in case I was somehow unclear -- that I really hope you're up front with your players about all these "stealth" penalties you're tacking on.  I'd be upset if I bought the book, read the book, understood the rules, and then got a bunch of extra stuff thrown at me when I thought I had a handle on things.

If they understand your outlook and you go over these extra penalties with them in advance in a clear and forthright fashion, and if they're still on board, then cool.  I'm glad to hear it, and I wish you (and them) well.  I just hope you're not blindsiding folks, is all, because I can see it being really frustrating, otherwise.

LionofPerth

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« Reply #22 on: <09-05-14/1311:17> »
Yeah, I really don't need a two-page lecture on how the setting works, thanks, I'm pretty familiar with it.

All I'm saying is -- in case I was somehow unclear -- that I really hope you're up front with your players about all these "stealth" penalties you're tacking on.  I'd be upset if I bought the book, read the book, understood the rules, and then got a bunch of extra stuff thrown at me when I thought I had a handle on things.

If they understand your outlook and you go over these extra penalties with them in advance in a clear and forthright fashion, and if they're still on board, then cool.  I'm glad to hear it, and I wish you (and them) well.  I just hope you're not blindsiding folks, is all, because I can see it being really frustrating, otherwise.

I am going to be as up front with them as I can be. I make it clear that I am not running things straight out of the book, it is in a world inspired by the book world, one that I've adapted to what I feel works better, flows better. Makes sense and where the people actually behave like people. I say as much verbally and written, I keep a Rules of Engagement for every campaign I run. In there it has every single house rule, change, as well as the process of character creation. It's an one stop shop if you ever need to remember something about the game.

It's not meant to blind side or be a penalty for them, a reaction to them. If I really wanted to penalise the players for cyberwear, see a paragraph in my last post. I've spent way too much time around IT to not do less on some level and I would actively enforce that as a minimum standard. I'm not going to run with that, out of the simple fact if I did, it would really bias adepts and magic users. If I wanted to, I would create so much fear in their minds they wouldn't leave their safe house short a full military company. I will give them the chance to work things out, I will give them the answers if they put the work in. How they get to that point, that's up to them.

Like I said previously, it's meant to be subtle, it's mean to occur no more than once, twice a session. That also more on the extreme end of it as well. This is to be a spectrum of one every two, three sessions, through to once or twice a session. Perhaps I should have made that clear, or clearer. I know what it's liked to be blindsided by a GM, if not outright lied to, openly mocked at the table, both for the character and at the player. I believe that I've taken enough precautions against just blindsiding them, I certainly wouldn't do the other things I listed.

If anything, I think the designers and writers for Shadowrun are in need of a lecture or two, a fifteen to five hundred page essay on just how this world needs to work. I don't think they know their -ists, isms or the implication of what this level of technology actually allows them to do in the first place. Hell, how they've phrased the Global SIN Registry doesn't work on a fundamental level if you've ever done any sort of databasing. At least if you've had my education in the field.
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #23 on: <09-05-14/1649:46> »
... I just get the feeling, LoP, that you're not playing a game, you're planning on how to destroy your players' characters - that you don't want them to have fun, you want them to fail.  It's just a feeling, but I'll admit that it comes from the same sources that Critias's do.  I feel - from that last post - that you have a critical failure in understanding a lot more of the theme than you think you do; what you think needs fixing is exactly what you don't understand the most.  One such thing is the cost/benefit analysis done by the corporations in regards to the runner community: the bean-counting has determined that they get more benefit from allowing the runner community to continue to exist (beef up security with the proles' blessing, have deniable assets to perform corporate espionage for them, etc.) than the comparative cost in putting up those defenses, putting up with losses to other corporations.  Oh, if a particular shadowrunner or group proves to be excessively destructive, sure they're going to eliminate them - but they have a facade of respectability to maintain, which means they use out-of-house deniable assets for their dirtiest of dirty tricks.

And considering that a number of the developers have college degrees in such critical things as history and analysis - Critias, for example, is teaching history down there at Tarleton - I'd say that they have a pretty good frelling grasp of 'just how this world needs to work', what with all the -ists and -isms and magical and technological wonders.  They may not get annoying little details right - such as 'how the Global SIN registry actually works' - but that's a matter of minute portions of handwavium that really, really come actively into the game once, if ever.

It's good that racism is a thing in your game; it's good that anti-magic and anti-impant biases are there.  They exist in the world-as-written, and there are penalties and such in place.  I wonder, and I think Critias wonders, if you are turning the game from a game into a straightjacket - that you're saying 'sure, players can play 'whatever they want', but anything but an ordinary mundane low- to no-implant human is going to take more penalties than the baseline game presents - which means that anyone besides that sort of character is going to have more problems than can normally be planned for.

If you're going for a clear-cut 'us vs. them' game - which, as I said, it seems to me is your goal - then I think you'll have succeeded.  Just ... like Critias said, I really hope you warn them that that's the vibe, that if they make any sort of thing that you consider a mistake, they're going to be ICly punished for it, whether overtly or subtly.

Like I said - it's the vibe I get.



On a side note, an interesting view of cybernetic implants and the potential ubiquity of them - and their effect on society - can be found in the A.D. Police Files anime episode, 'The Ripper' - in which an ordinary person is considering eye replacements because of vision/eye problems.
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Namikaze

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« Reply #24 on: <09-05-14/1705:46> »
Lion, can you explain to me how you can reconcile these two things?

my personal preference for a more.... simulationist attitude

I make it clear that I am not running things straight out of the book, it is in a world inspired by the book world, one that I've adapted to what I feel works better, flows better.

On the one hand, you try to make it seem like your way is the "true" Shadowrun way, what with the whole "simulationist" thing.  Then you also state that you've heavily adapted the game world to be completely different from the book's game world.  And you're asking for advice and feedback on that proto-world, not on Shadowrun's world, but getting defensive when one of the people who literally creates that Shadowrun world tells you that your world isn't the same as Shadowrun's world.

It just feels like your motivations aren't what one would come to expect from someone asking for advice and feedback on a game setting.  You should probably preface everything you say with: "I'm not talking about Shadowrun, I'm talking about a game that I made up that's based loosely on Shadowrun."
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Critias

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« Reply #25 on: <09-05-14/2215:16> »
I am going to be as up front with them as I can be. I make it clear that I am not running things straight out of the book, it is in a world inspired by the book world, one that I've adapted to what I feel works better, flows better.
Good.  I'm done, then.  More power to you, and I really could've done without the rest of the post.
« Last Edit: <09-06-14/0043:36> by Critias »

Agonar

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« Reply #26 on: <09-06-14/0040:32> »
This is not a happy setting, it's not even a neutral setting. It's a meat grinder of a setting. The nicest people you meet are the ones who simply don't care about you at all.

must take a special kind of player willing to play in this world.  Personally, I can't imagine anyone willing to sit through several hours of this as entertainment.  I know I would rather sit home and watch the news if this is the sort of environment I wanted to immerse myself in.  Definitely not what I would consider a fun game.

Most of my players would abandon me if I ran this sort of game.  Specially if I blindsided them with even harsher penalties for decisions than what's there.  Don't get me wrong, I recently killed a PCs contact because they called it in for reinforcements, without taking a moment to gauge the severity of the threat they were bringing this contact into.  But even with that, they were warned several times, about the situation this contact would be in, how much support he would have, etc, and they failed to take that into consideration.  They knew beforehand.  They weren't blindsided by "Oh, you are playing a street sam, here's an extra serving of screwyou on top of the penalties you already get."  If you informed them beforehand, give them the chance to decide, sure.  Then, if they are aware of it, and accept it, then by all means.  But to be deceptive and sneaky about it...  nah.
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Killstring

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« Reply #27 on: <09-06-14/0232:21> »
Eh, if that's what makes it work for your table, more power to you all. I'm not super into survival horror or quote-unquote "grimdark" RPG's, but many people are. And that's good! Diversity is important to the health of the hobby, though I daresay you might have more luck with the Warhammer 40k RPG series. Rather than derail this into a discussion of the precise definitions of simulationism and what that means/Ron Edwards' useful-but-flawed GNS theory, I will simply wish you and your table the best in this, and echo Critias, Wyrm and others in recommending some clear, upfront communication about how your game world works.

There are few things in gaming more frustrating than utterly different, incompatible assumptions about the world.

Again, best of luck, and let me know how the game goes!

LionofPerth

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« Reply #28 on: <09-06-14/0317:53> »
I don't see a problem in making the player group rely on the Running community. I can't wrap my head around not trying to inspire this. It's how the Runner community would work, it's the only survival mechanism they have.

I guess I'm more inclined to really tear down systems, worlds, work out how they break before I run them. In this case, I think there's still a little too much stupidity left in the world. I also suppose, having the sources and conversations I've had over the years, I can't help but make things better, smoother, that the NPC's feel real.

None the less, I thank you all for the good wishes and would like to return them for your own projects.

When in doubt, C4.

Killstring

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« Reply #29 on: <09-09-14/1721:00> »
I don't see a problem in making the player group rely on the Running community. I can't wrap my head around not trying to inspire this. It's how the Runner community would work, it's the only survival mechanism they have.

Reasonable. I suppose I didn't (and to an extent, still don't) see the correlation. I certainly encourage running things according to what makes sense to you - I've certainly never run anything out-of-the-box - and am not trying to discourage that.

Hope your games are awesome.