[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Yyyyeah, but no.  What you can't use together is specified: Wired Reflexes cannot be used with any other Initiative or Reaction enhancements.

Wired reflexes are incompatible with augmentations that affect Reaction or Initiative.

If the rule was 'Reaction is an Initiative enhancement' - which rule is nowhere to be found - then your philosophy would hold water, and they would not need to specify 'Reaction or Initiative'.  They would not state:

When activated, each rating point of wired reflexes gives you +1 Reaction (and accompanying bonus to Initiative) and +1D6 Initiative Die. (Emphasis mine.)

I interpret 'Augmentations' as being anything that applies, whether cyberware, bioware, or magic; it may be a magic augmentation, but that's still an augment.  And nowhere does it actually state any blanket ruling; each item and spell has its own statement about what it is incompatable with.  If it doesn't have a incompatability statement, then by your own quote about compatability, it's compatable with anything that does not have its OWN incompatability statement.

You feel free to be as restrictive as you like; your peoples' max initiative is gonna wind up being what, 18 + 5d6?  That's fine for your game; enjoy.  But please, don't think your decision in any way reflects the game's stated rules.

[8-bit]

I haven't looked at this thread for a while, what the heck happened. I'm seeing a ton of disagreements and what seems to be some hostility here. Many seem to think that these two things don't stack, some say they do; let's move past this.

A question to ask now, and let's please not stab at each other, is what about the Suprathyroid Gland's other bonuses? The +1 to Body, Agility, and Strength? Would these still be available at the same time as the Improved Reflexes power adding to your initiative? To clarify, this would result in +1 Body, +1 Agility, +1 Strength, +3 Reaction, and +3d6 Initiative Dice. In your guys opinion, do these other bonuses still work, or are they negated due to being part of the same piece of bioware?

[Namikaze]

Any attribute can be increased up to the augmented maximum.  The only things that break the augmented maximum are drugs.  The question, and hostility, arises from a disagreement about what constitutes an attribute.

[Xenon]

 @The Wyrm Ouroboros
Magic and Drugs are not Augmentations.
Cyberware and Bioware are Augmentations.

I consider that incompatible to Initiative increases include Reaction and Intuition for the purpose of indirect calculating Initiative Attribute as well as direct increases to Initiative Attribute... so at my table we probably end up with less initiative attribute than a table that consider incompatible to initiative only include direct increases to initiative attribute and compatible with increases to reaction and intuition for the purpose of calculating initiative attribute.

WR state reaction to make it incompatible with augmentations to reaction (such as reaction enhancers), even for the purpose of calculating pilot dice pool. WR state initiative to make it incompatible with augmentations to intuition and reaction for the purpose of calculating initiative attribut and augmentations directly to initiative attribute. If the intent was to only make it incompatible with augmentations to initiative attribute (and compatible with reaction enhancers for the purpose of calculating pilot skill pool)... Then they could have left out the reaction part (like improved reflexes do). If they wanted WR to be incompatible with augmentations and magic then they could have used "technological and magical" (like improved reflexes do). If they wanted WR to be incompatible with drugs, magic and augmentations then they could have used "any other form of enhancement" (like synaptic boosters do). I'd they wanted WR to be compatible with everything then they could have done it like the increase reflexes spell.

You didn't answer my question. For argument sake;  assume for a second that Augmentation mean Cyberware or Bioware. Would you then consider improved reflexes to be compatible (stack) with wired reflexes (since none of them increases initiative attribute directly)?

@8-bit
You can have weird reflexes and Gland at the same time.
In this case you have to pick between WR or Glands for increases to reaction and you have to pick between WR or Glands for calculating Initiative Attribute. You would use WR for increases to initiative dice. You would use Glands for increases to agility, body and strength.

@ Namikaze
Magic and Drugs are not Augmentations.
Cyberware and Bioware are Augmentations.

Only augmentations (cyberware and bioware) have a blanket +4 augmented maximum unless a specific augmentation explicit saying anything different (like wireless reflex enhancers, most augmentations don't).

Drugs and  Magic don't have a blanket statement and only follow the +4 augmentation maximum if they explicit say so (like Increase Attribute, Attribute Boost,  Improved Physical Attribute etc. Most magical enhancement do, but not all. None of the drugs do. Not sure if you can combine two combat drugs.... But if you for example combine Improved Reflexes 3 + Jazz + Kamikaze you would end up with +5 reaction).

You didn't answer my question. Do you consider that improved reflexes and wired reflexes stack (none of them increase initiative attribute directly).

[Namikaze]

You didn't answer my question. Do you consider that improved reflexes and wired reflexes stack (none of them increase initiative attribute directly).

I am trying to stick to the topic at hand.  But to satisfy your curiosity, I would argue that the following statements are the basis that we have to go with:

the increase cannot be combined with other technological or magical increases to Initiative.

Wired reflexes are incompatible with augmentations that affect Reaction or Initiative.

So no you can't stack them.  Wired Reflexes clearly states that it is incompatible with any other increases to Reaction or Initiative, and Increase Reflexes is a boost to both.  However, Increase Reflexes is compatible with other boosts to Reaction.

[Xenon]

So improved reflexes increase both reaction and initiative? For once we are agreeing

But now I am a bit confused.

You didn't consider an increase to initiative dice to be an increase to initiative (that initiative in this case is initiative attribute and that initiative dice is something else).

I've always interpreted that Initiative is a derived attribute, and that Initiative Dice is something wholly different...

And I got the impression that you didn't consider that an increase to reaction count as an increase to initiative (have this now changed or did I misunderstand you from the beginning)?

If you do consider an increase of reaction to count as an increase to initiative and the increase cannot be combined with other technological or magical increases to initiative; will that not make improved reflexes incompatible with Glands for the purpose of calculating initiative (but, depending on your reading, may or may not still be compatible with increases to reaction when the purpose have nothing to do with Initiative - like when calculating a pilot skill dice pool)??

[Namikaze]

Alright, Xenon I'll break this down.  Again.

• You have attributes.
• You have derived attributes.
• You have bonuses to attributes.
• You have bonuses to derived attributes.

A bonus to Reaction or Intuition is not the same as a bonus to Initiative.  A bonus to Reaction or Intuition will affect Initiative, except in cases where the information is explicitly stated otherwise.

Got all that?  Good.  Let's move on.

Wired Reflexes explicitly states that it's effects are not cumulative with any bonuses to Reaction or Initiative.  Improved Reflexes explicitly states that it's effects are not cumulative with any bonuses to Initiative.

Are we finally clear on this?  The book is pretty clear to me, and apparently to others.  My reading of the book is pretty clear to everyone else - I've not had to explain myself four times to anyone else.  So why, after three other explanations, are you still asking questions like this:

If you do consider an increase of reaction to count as an increase to initiative and the increase cannot be combined with other technological or magical increases to initiative; will that not make improved reflexes incompatible with Glands for the purpose of calculating initiative (but, depending on your reading, may or may not still be compatible with increases to reaction when the purpose have nothing to do with Initiative - like when calculating a pilot skill dice pool)??

I do not consider an increase of reaction to count as an increase to initiative.  Period.  I consider an increase to Reaction to be an increase to Reaction.  Initiative, as a derived attribute, also changes because the Reaction has changed.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Precisely.  Xenon, if an increase in Reaction was considered a direct increase to initiative, it wouldn't specify both.  Really, this is blatantly clear - and always has been.  You're either being pedantic or deliberately obtuse.

[Kincaid]

I read this the same way as Namikaze, if that's any indication. 

[Xenon]

I am pretty sure Aaron said something along the lines that augmentations = cyberware and bioware, but i can't seem to find the reference right now....

If this is the case. And if increase to reaction and increase to initiative dice don't count as increase to initiative. Then improved reflexes would be compatible with wired reflexes (and every other drug, cyberware, bioware, spell or adept power except increase reflexes since increase reflexes is the only enhancement that directly increase initiative attribute) and Wired Reflexes would be compatible with improved reflexes (and all other magical and drug enhancements etc. that are not cyberware or bioware; that does not count as augmentations).

Putting the augmentation definition and wired reflexes augmentation aside; the final initiative score increase you get from having improved Reflexes would be compatible with the final initiative score increase that would result from having Adrenaline Boost, Increase Intuition, Improved Physical Attribute [Reaction], Adrenaline Pump, Suprathyroid gland, Cram, Jazz, Novacoke, increase reaction, psych (and possible wired reflexes ... depending on if augmentation mean only cyberware + bioware;  or not). This will potentially lead to increased final initiative scores....

With a reading that "increases to initiative" would include indirect and direct increases to attribute, dice and score... then improved reflexes will be incompatible with all technological and magical increases that affect initiative in any way for the purpose of calculating the final initiative score. improved reflexes would basically only be compatible with drugs (when it comes to calculating the final initiative score).

I might very well be wrong, but am I really the only one that find it more than a bit strange that for example improved reflexes, wired reflexes, adrenaline boost or synaptic boosters would not count as increases to initiative...??

[faffner]

I am pretty sure Aaron said something along the lines that augmentations = cyberware and bioware, but i can't seem to find the reference right now....

Maybe this?
p.23
A few of
us are lucky enough to get that edge through magic.
For the rest of us, there are augmentations.

p.94
First, when purchasing aug-
mentations such as cyberware and bioware, each attri-
bute rating (Mental and Physical) can only receive an
augmentation bonus of up to +4. If the attribute being
raised has not reached its natural maximum limit, the
attribute can be raised naturally with Karma; but at no
point can augmentations exceed the +4 bonus cap.

While Synaptic boosters "cannot be combined with any other form of Reaction or Initiative enhancement", the restriction for Wired Reflexes is that they "are incompatible with augmentations that affect Reaction or Initiative". On the magical side, while the Improved Reflexes power  says "the increase cannot be combined with other technological or magical increases  to Initiative", the Increase Reflexes spell doesn't say it's incompatible with anything except itself.
Does this mean Wired Reflexes and the Increase Reflexes can stack, since neither says it's incompatible with the other, or is this simply another phrasing mistake?

Yes.

and this?

Aaron in the initiative response what exactly are you saying yes to?

The first part of the question.

So in other words you're saying that Wired Reflexes and Increased Reflexes do stack because Augmentation in the wired reflexes text only refers to cybernetic augmentations?

Do you intend the corollary to this that the augmented maximum only applies to Cybernetic augmentation and that magical augmentation (or whatever you've decided to call it since we can't now call it augmentation) is completely uncapped?

Yes, followed by no. You can't get more than 5D6 in Initiative Dice no matter what your source.

Edit: a full list of stuff which is fiddeling with physical initiative:

   not             not                not
derived      derived         derived                  derived
Attribute    Attribute       Attribute(?)          Attribute
   REA           INT      INITIATIVE Dices     INITIATIVE

                                          x                          x              Increase Reflexes (p.288, spell) magic
                                                                                      (no restrictions except for the 5Dices cap)

      x               x                                                             Increase Attribute (p.288, spell) magic
                                                                                     up to the target’s augmented maximum

                                                                       x            Adrenaline Boost (p.308, adept power) magic
                                                                                    (no restrictions at all)

      x                                                                            Improved Physical Attribute (p.309, adept power) magic
                                                                                    up to your augmented maximum.

      x                                                                            Attribute Boost (p.309, adept power) magic (not affecting INI at all)
                                                                                    up to your augmented Attribute maximum. This only affects your dice pools...

      x                                     x                                      Improved Reflexes (p.310, adept power) magic
                                                                                     cannot be combined with other technological or magical increases to Initiative.

      x                                                                              Reaction Enhancers (p.455, cyberware)tech
                                                                                     incompatible with all other enhancements to Reaction, including wired reflexes.

      x                                     x                                      Wired Reflexes (p.455, cyberware)tech
                                                                                     ...incompatible with augmentations that affect Reaction or Initiative...

      x                                     x                                      Synaptic Booster (p.461, bioware)tech
                                                                                     cannot be combined with any other form of Reaction or Initiative enhancement.

      x                                                                             Suprathyroid Gland (p.459, bioware)tech
                                                                                     up to your augmented maximum. (p.94)

      x                                                                             Adrenaline Pump (p.459, bioware)tech
                                                                                     up to your augmented maximum. (p.94)

      x             x                      x                                       Drugs (p.411)tech?
                                                                                     (restrictions?)

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

If this is the case. And if increase to reaction and increase to initiative dice don't count as increase to initiative....

I might very well be wrong, but am I really the only one that find it more than a bit strange that for example improved reflexes, wired reflexes, adrenaline boost or synaptic boosters would not count as increases to initiative...??

See, you're the only one who's saying this - that things that say they're increases to initiative aren't increases to initiative.  An increase to your reaction is not a direct increase to initiative.  Period fucking stop.  An increase to initiative is an increase to your initiative, and an increase to your initiative dice is also - by my reading - an increase to your initative.  This is what we've been saying all along.  This is the official interpretation.  So either you're refusing to get it, or you're baiting us.  Either way, stop.

[Xenon]

It might be a language barrier thing, but pretty much everyone in this thread (except maybe you and me) say that increase to initiative dice does not count as an increase to initiative and that increase to initiative score does not count as an increase to initiative.

And I seem to be alone in my interpretation that an increase to reaction or intuition for the purpose of calculating initiative attribute count as an increase to initiative.

The only thing everyone in this thread seem to agree on is that a direct increase to initiative attribute count as an increase to initiative (but the list of enhancements this would include is limited to one single item; increase reflexes spell).

[ZeConster]

And I seem to be alone in my interpretation that an increase to reaction or intuition for the purpose of calculating initiative attribute count as an increase to initiative.

As weird as it feels to say, I actually agree with you on this. Of course, since you're agreeing with me, that means I must be wrong. Hmmm...

It might be a language barrier thing, but pretty much everyone in this thread (except maybe you and me) say that increase to initiative dice does not count as an increase to initiative and that increase to initiative score does not count as an increase to initiative.

The Initiative Dice part, by my own interpretation, is a moot point, since almost everything (except Kamikaze, and apparently drugs aren't subject to incompatibility rules) that increases your Initiative Dice also (directly or indirectly) affects the Initiative attribute. As for your Initiative Score, well, my opinion on the matter is known, although I do feel that if you use Adrenaline Boost multiple times in a Combat Turn, the Drain Value should stack or increase somehow (even if it's incompatible, the idea that a Troll could get Adrenaline Boost 5, use it however many times he needs to murder everyone in the room, then have like 0.01% chance of dying even if he used it 30 times, is silly).

[Lucean]

The problem is that every time they wrote about the limits of a certain buff to initiative they use a different text. I'm not sure that they were aware of the implications.

I get it that Wired Reflexes needed the boost of being able to stack Reaction Enhancers compared to Synaptic Boosters. But why did they write it so that Synaptic Boosters don't even stack with drugs and at the same time allowed Increase Reflexes to be stacked onto Wired Reflexes? Essence as a DP-modifier does not much, as the bonus is absolute and independant of the current initiative. So even Force 2 with 2 hits can push a WRIII-user to 5d6 dice and +2 initiative.

Now entering houserule territory:
Improved Reflexes, Increase Reflexes, Wired Reflexes and Synaptic Boosters (as well as possible later additions of Move-by-Wire and Boosted Reflexes) don't stack with each other.
Reaction Enhancers stay as they are in allowing the augmented maximum to be superseded with Wired Reflexes being both wirelessly enabled.
Suprathyroid Gland stacks with everything but Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers and allows you to reach augmented maximum on REA with Synaptic Boosters III.
Drugs count as chemical increases and stack with everything up to 5d6 initiative dice.

So you could combine wirelessly enabled Wired Reflexes II + Reaction Enhancers III with Kamikaze for +5REA and 5d6 initiative dice or
Synaptic Boosters III + Suprathyroid Gland + Jazz for the same result regarding initiative.

PS: If they release K-10 again, maybe there should be a limit to chemical increases as well