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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #30 on: <09-26-14/1110:21> »
You could still be effective enough without using them. The Martial Arts before were just good enough to be worth bothering to purchase instead of just saying you're a martial artist, and that was with everything one could gain from them and the costs as they were. 27 karma is simply ridiculous for a few little niche modifications.
« Last Edit: <09-26-14/1119:12> by All4BigGuns »
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

Tangled Currents (Persistent): 33 Karma, 60,000 nuyen

S.Miles

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« Reply #31 on: <09-26-14/1112:14> »
Well, I guess we both have different requirements on "effectiveness" but the same view on the MAs ;) So let's keep it at your resumé.

Tarislar

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« Reply #32 on: <09-26-14/1201:07> »
Bah. *houserules a (Paracritter) Form spell for Awakened NPCs*
I'm still not getting why the it was nerfed.   >:(
Single type Para-form like the Examples were giving was IMHO a great alternative to a gimped form of Shapechange which is what we end up with.

Ways IMHO are still too expensive, I'd like to see them reduced down to 15 each & see the power choice options expanded since some are like 7 powers while others are 12.  I'd like to see them all have the same # of .5 & 1.0 listed powers.  Like say 9 & 3 each to match the best current way list.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #33 on: <09-26-14/1203:11> »
And melee in general needs much less of a focus to be effective in SR5.  Moderately high STR (6+, including augmentations) and a good weapon means you're able to do damage enough for it to be usable.  In SR4, you needed MA or Critical Strike and high STR to be worth it, and it was still questionable due to the drawbacks (only a bit lessened in 5th) combined with the investment necessary.

That was a strength of the 4e system. There were a lot of different routes to being an effective melee character. By removing multiple levels of critical strike and multiple dv levels from martial arts they reduced the number of options drastically. Melee is more powerful in 5e but it is orders of magnitude worse for probably the majority of people who wanted to play a melee character because the largest archetype normal strength phys adept got crapped on so the troll could shine.

Zwischenzug

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« Reply #34 on: <09-26-14/1238:07> »
You could still be effective enough without using them. The Martial Arts before were just good enough to be worth bothering to purchase instead of just saying you're a martial artist, and that was with everything one could gain from them and the costs as they were. 27 karma is simply ridiculous for a few little niche modifications.
You don't have to buy all the techniques in a style, though. And some of the techniques offer tactical choices you quite simply don't have access to other than through martial arts; Clinch is a good example of this. The ability to be able to not only negate Reach bonuses but actively turn them against the attacker can be huge for an unarmed combatant, for example, and a single technique only costs 7 karma.

Finishing Move, while expensive at -10 Initiative and -1 Edge, has the potential to allow you to take out an opponent in a single attack; this could be equally tactically huge, as taking out that one guard before he has a chance to sound an alarm (only requires a thought, after all, what with DNI and the like) can be the difference between a successful mission and a failed one.

It feels to me like you're being a little hyperbolic in this case; are Martial Arts the be-all, end-all of close combat in SR5? Absolutely not. Do they offer interesting (and admittely some rather useless) options for a relatively acceptable cost? In my opinion, yes.

ZeConster

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« Reply #35 on: <09-26-14/1302:50> »
Bah. *houserules a (Paracritter) Form spell for Awakened NPCs*
I'm still not getting why the it was nerfed.   >:(
Because this brings it back to the level (Critter) Form was at in 4th?

Sengir

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« Reply #36 on: <09-26-14/1741:06> »
Bah. *houserules a (Paracritter) Form spell for Awakened NPCs*
I'm still not getting why the it was nerfed.   >:(
Paracritters have magical powers, which the subject would gain of the spells would gain if they worked with paracritters. That's opening a huge can of worms...

Kincaid

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« Reply #37 on: <09-27-14/0848:21> »
Bah. *houserules a (Paracritter) Form spell for Awakened NPCs*
I'm still not getting why the it was nerfed.   >:(
Paracritters have magical powers, which the subject would gain of the spells would gain if they worked with paracritters. That's opening a huge can of worms...

Exhibit A: Just about every Polymorph-related thread for previous editions of D&D.
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Malevolence

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« Reply #38 on: <09-27-14/1428:27> »

Exhibit A: Just about every Polymorph-related thread for previous editions of D&D.


I don't know if that was in support of or against a paracritter option for (critter) form, but since you bring up D&D...


If I recall correctly, pretty much every version of shapechange that allowed supernatural forms came with the caveat that you only gained their natural, non-magical physical abilities. So, you could take the form of a dragon, but you would not get its breath weapon, but you would get its claw/claw/bite/tail/wing attack. I'm less clear on if you got flight, but I don't think so (I hated playing magic users of any stripe because the spell memorization/slot system rubbed me the wrong way).


So for SR, I would think Dragon form would allow you to look like a dragon and gain their bite and claw attacks, but not gain their elemental attack, dragonspeech, hardened armor, or anything else that isn't normally a feature of a mundane critter (effectively armor, natural weapons, Enhanced Senses, and winged flight). Becoming a Shark or other sub-aquatic animal would grant you the ability to breathe water (or hold your breath a really long time in the case of dolphins and whales) as well as an enhanced swim speed, though the stat block doesn't indicate that, nor does it indicate the ability to fly for critters that should have that ability, so these things aren't so much powers as innate qualities I guess.


Of course, with the +/-2 BOD requirement of the spell, you aren't going to see much in the way of Dragons (though a 13+ BOD Troll could pull off a Feathered Serpent form) so treat the Dragon example as more of an extreme case. I'd also rule that it would have to have a physical form, so no ghost/fog/ball of light forms, etc.


As likely evidenced by the forum posts you mention, there may be edge cases (this paracritter has flight, but no wings, do I still get flight? No as it's a supernatural effect, etc) but it is not broken or otherwise impossible to implement sanely.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #39 on: <09-27-14/1816:38> »
So for SR, I would think Dragon form
See, I'd go with non-sapient paracritters to begin with. So no Ghoul, Vampire or Dracoform.
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MijRai

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« Reply #40 on: <09-27-14/1828:54> »
So for SR, I would think Dragon form
See, I'd go with non-sapient paracritters to begin with. So no Ghoul, Vampire or Dracoform.

Drakes aren't sapient, last I checked.  Naga and sasquatch are, however. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

ZeConster

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« Reply #41 on: <09-27-14/1855:33> »
"Dracoforms" is a fancy term for dragons, and Sapience is a "common" power for them according to page 407. Drakes, as far as I can tell, are metahumans (and therefore sapient) with dragon powers.

MijRai

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« Reply #42 on: <09-27-14/1906:49> »
"Dracoforms" is a fancy term for dragons, and Sapience is a "common" power for them according to page 407. Drakes, as far as I can tell, are metahumans (and therefore sapient) with dragon powers.

No, the other drakes.  Fire and ice and sea drakes.  The non-sentient dracoform critters that live on Kamchatka, Iceland/Greenland, etc. 
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Malevolence

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« Reply #43 on: <09-27-14/2033:20> »
So for SR, I would think Dragon form
See, I'd go with non-sapient paracritters to begin with. So no Ghoul, Vampire or Dracoform.
I could see making non-sapience a requirement. To me, it's fine either way.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #44 on: <09-27-14/2054:25> »
"Dracoforms" is a fancy term for dragons, and Sapience is a "common" power for them according to page 407. Drakes, as far as I can tell, are metahumans (and therefore sapient) with dragon powers.

No, the other drakes.  Fire and ice and sea drakes.  The non-sentient dracoform critters that live on Kamchatka, Iceland/Greenland, etc.
So you mean the ones from SR4 Running Wild, not the Dracoforms in SR5 Core.
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