[Top Dog]

@ZeCoster: One issue with your system is that it robs the MA (or AM in your terminology) of the option to initiate for a powerpoint (because the limit still applies).Also capping magic like that kind of kills the "Jack of all Trades" concept behind most MA builds that I have encountered.

The limit this system introduces is just on the effective "Adept Magic". Initiation PP has always been able to go over the "normal" PP=Magic limit, this system wouldn't change that. If your Magic 6, "Adept Magic" 4 character would initiate, he'd still have 4 "Adept Magic", but 5 PP. Just as a Magic 4 ordinary adept who initiated for the PP.

Interesting question for the pedants under us: under this system, can you initiate 6 times (for aformentioned Magic 6/Adept Magic 4 character) for 6 additional PP, ending at 4+6=10?

[Lucean]

This would be entirely up to the table, since it's a houserule
But you could leave initiations entirely to the cap of highest MAG attribute or could try to distinguish between "adept initiation" and "magician initiation" with the total cap still being the highest of the two, but individual uses being restricted to the governing attribute - so PP would be limited to the adept attribute.

[ZeConster]

Stealing your "Magic and Chi" names, Lucean. (Also renaming Adept Mage to Versed Mage or Versatile Mage so the acronym isn't the same as that of Aspected Magician).

@ZeCoster: One issue with your system is that it robs the MA (or AM in your terminology) of the option to initiate for a powerpoint (because the limit still applies).

It really doesn't:

it's easy to remember how many PP you're supposed to have: just add your "Adept Magic"Chi and the amount of PP you got from Initiations together

It doesn't even add to bookkeeping for tracking PP compared to simply allowing PP to be bought post-chargen: instead of writing down your Magic Rating and how many PP you've bought with Karma, you write down your Magic Rating and your Chi Rating. Other bookkeeping is mostly limited to replacing "Magic" with "Chi" for adept powers and certain skills.

Also capping magic like that kind of kills the "Jack of all Trades" concept behind most MA builds that I have encountered.

It allows MAs to focus on their adept side over their magician side, which is something several people, including A4BG, have complained about the current system not allowing. I choose to see this not as "killing the Jack-of-all-Trades concept" but as "turning being a Mystic Adept into a Major-Minor thing, adding more flavor". You could always loosen the limit to -1 instead of -2, though.

Simply allowing for the swapping of spells and Power Points only solves one problem people have with the restrictions on Mystic Adepts; my proposal solves three:

• lowering how much Karma you can invest in being an MA/VM at chargen frees up Karma for other things
• tying your Power Points to your Chi rating allows you to get more Power Points as a VM if you raise your Magic post-chargen (by paying 5 Karma to raise your Chi as well, which only takes 1 week instead of [new rating] weeks), and grants MAs a free Power Point if they raise their Chi
• it allows for Mystic Adepts which are focused more on their adept side than their Magician side

Plus IMNSHO it makes MAs more interesting - with a system like that, I wouldn't mind playing one.

Minor side-note, by the way: my name is ZeConster, not ZeCoster.

Interesting question for the pedants under us: under this system, can you initiate 6 times (for aformentioned Magic 6/Adept Magic 4 character) for 6 additional PP, ending at 4+6=10?

I'd go with "highest of Magic and Chi", myself, but people who are actual GMs may disagree, or go with Lucean's idea if they don't mind the extra bookkeeping.

[Beaumis]

It doesn't even add to bookkeeping for tracking PP compared to simply allowing PP to be bought post-chargen: instead of writing down your Magic Rating and how many PP you've bought with Karma, you write down your Magic Rating and your Chi Rating. Other bookkeeping is mostly limited to replacing "Magic" with "Chi" for adept powers and certain skills.

I missed that part, my bad. Also, I'm sorry misspelled your name. 

I see the idea behind your system, but I do not see how it solves more than the spell swap option. Using spell "slots" to buy PPs frees up karma as well, if you don't use karma to "buy back" the spells and solves the "requires negative qualities" issue in the same way. MA's can already focus on their adept side by spending their karma on PP initiations rather than raising magic or buying spells, though your system does allow them to do so at chargen already.

Just to make sure I get this right:

Your system is based on two attributes: Magic and Chi. At chargen the player decides which of the two he wishes to prioritize. Let's call the primary A and the secondary B for simplicity's sake.

• Attribute A is equal to the magic rating as listed on the priority table plus allocated special attribute points, with a maximum of six.
• Attribute B's maximum is equal to attribute A's value - 2 but it's current value has to be bought for five karma per point. (Or the max is just four?)

Post chargen the treatment changes a little.

• Attribute A's maximum is equal to 6 + initiate grade and can be raised with karma as normal. (new rating * 5)
• Attribute B's maximum is tied to A's current rating - 2. It can be raised for five karma per point up to the maximum at any time.
• Raising Chi always grants a PP no matter if it is attribute A or B.

Assuming I am understanding this correctly:

• This system basically solves the "limited karma at chargen/ mandatory negative quality" issue by limiting the amount of karma that can be spend to 20. In effect you either nerf MA's Mage or Adept ability to have their primary and secondary "attributes" at equal ratings.
• As written "strange 9 Magic and only 3 PP" situations still arise since I can decide to buy no PP at chargen to save karma. The system does limit this disparity to six points or less though.
• As a VM I can let my PP exceed my Chi and my Magic by initiating for PP. (At grade 3+, assuming the old rules of PP from initiations can exceed my magic do apply.) I cannot let my Magic catch up in a similar fashion as a MA. (This gives one chargen option the chance of being reversed while it denies the same opportunity to the other. Admittedly, there is little incentive to initiate for PP other than reversing that choice.)
  
• I have a major incentive to start with zero Chi or Magic rating, because the cost of qualities doubles after chargen while the cost of catching up with my secondary attribute does not.
• Arguably, I see a bit of a buff to magic focussed characters here because on a point for point basis, PPs seem more valuable than Magic. This is however heavily dependent on how the point is spend. (Comparing raising increased reflexes from two to three to another dice for all tests involving magic, I'd say increased reflexes wins especially when compared to investing the PP into increased attribute: reaction.)

Your system has a definitive strength in the fact that it allows for a character that has more PP than he has Magic, but that issue could be solved by simply changing "up to your magic rating" to "up to six". Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it seems pretty complicated in comparison to: "PPs are 5 karma or a spell slot, you can buy up to six" without much of a gain.

Personally, I think the fact that I have an incentive to start out with zero Magic/Chi is the prime weakness of the system, but it did shine a new light on the state of the MA and the "buy em or lose em" character of PPs. It does encourage "rounded" characters that are able to fill their intended role from the start over karma efficient optimized ones. I never looked at it from that perspective before. Thank you for that.

[Namikaze]

The idea behind this, and why I call it "Mystic Adept Hate" is simply because since they can get Power Points, and can do both sides of the magic spectrum with the exception of Projection (and even Astral Perception without spending a full Power Point on the power) some very vocal people think they should have a requirement foisted upon them that no one else has. This is quite simply ridiculous.

This makes me wonder if you even bother to read the opinions of the rest of the posters before posting things.  For example, it was pointed out twice by me that a mystic adept has NEVER been able to have 6 points in Magic and Power Points.  Additionally, it was pointed out a whole bunch of times that the 5 point karma cost is a design decision by the developers of the game.  There's no "Mystic Adept Hate" as you erroneously call it.  It's simply the reinforcement of game concepts that have been in balance for decades.  The changes in this edition are more than sufficient to make Mystic Adapts very enticing as an archetype.  Heaven forbid that a player is asked to make a tough choice.

[incrdbil]

  The changes in this edition are more than sufficient to make Mystic Adapts very enticing as an archetype.  Heaven forbid that a player is asked to make a tough choice.

and other than making up a complaint, no one really gripes about taking Negative Qualities, since they do help define a character for role playing purposes. (Well, I guess min-maxers might gripe about it, but their griping is pretty much on the absolute bottom of the list of my concerns.)

[ZeConster]

As written "strange 9 Magic and only 3 PP" situations still arise since I can decide to buy no PP at chargen to save karma. The system does limit this disparity to six points or less though.

I could've explained that better, I suppose. My point is that under the current system, no matter how many PP you've bought, your 'regular' Magic rating is used to determine the effectiveness of your adept powers (like Attribute Boost, Berserk and Elemental Body), adept metamagics (like Infusion, Qi Sculpt, and Supernatural Prowess), and the maximum amount of ranks you can get in any given power. Under my houserule, those things are limited by your Chi, which I feel makes more sense.

I have a major incentive to start with zero Chi or Magic rating, because the cost of qualities doubles after chargen while the cost of catching up with my secondary attribute does not.

Correct. Personally, although I agree with the current system's Karma cost for PP, I believe allowing you to get Power Points later should definitely be a houserule worth considering. I do agree, though, that it may be a good idea to force MAs and VMs to buy at least one rank in their secondary attribute in Step Seven (after Essense loss due to 'ware, and when you're supposed to buy PP as an MA under the current rules), but more than 1 shouldn't be necessary.

The idea behind this, and why I call it "Mystic Adept Hate" is simply because since they can get Power Points, and can do both sides of the magic spectrum with the exception of Projection (and even Astral Perception without spending a full Power Point on the power) some very vocal people think they should have a requirement foisted upon them that no one else has. This is quite simply ridiculous.

By "some very vocal people" I take it you mean "the people who wrote the rulebook"?

[Beaumis]

I do agree, though, that it may be a good idea to force MAs and VMs to buy at least one rank in their secondary attribute in Step Seven (after Essense loss due to 'ware, and when you're supposed to buy PP as an MA under the current rules), but more than 1 shouldn't be necessary.

That wasn't actually my intent. Though, I'm curious what you think this would achieve? Unless the point is free it basically turns MAs into the only character that has only 20 karma to distribute at chargen.

[Top Dog]

Honestly, if I were to radically change MA's anyway, I'd change the priority system for them as a whole to make them be more sensible for the new rules. For example, Priority A might be Magic 5 and Chi 2 (and vice versa). Although that would be a net 20 karma loss so probably some more fiddling required. Point is, you might as well redesign that part as well if you're changing that much.

[ZeConster]

Point is, you might as well redesign that part as well if you're changing that much.

I'll give it a go later.

[Dracain]

While I do really like ZeConster's idea, here is one of my own, which is a bit smaller.  How about, instead of optionally trading spells for PP, you just make a MA start with less spells and a few PP, and they can build from there to be the kind of MA they prefer.  Let's try it out with the different priorities. 

A: 7 spells, 3 PP
B: 5 spells, 2 PP
C: 2 spells, 1PP

The numbers are just me spitballing, but it does seem to solve the problems presented here, and I think it makes more sense anyway. 

[prismite]

While I do really like ZeConster's idea, here is one of my own, which is a bit smaller.  How about, instead of optionally trading spells for PP, you just make a MA start with less spells and a few PP, and they can build from there to be the kind of MA they prefer.  Let's try it out with the different priorities. 

A: 7 spells, 3 PP
B: 5 spells, 2 PP
C: 2 spells, 1PP

The numbers are just me spitballing, but it does seem to solve the problems presented here, and I think it makes more sense anyway.

Personally, I feel this has the least impact on the design of the game and is one of the better ideas. No need for custom house-math, ring around the rule or any of that mess. Just -ploop- there it is. Good job DRacain! I will be instituting this in my future games, methinks.

[Tarislar]

While I do really like ZeConster's idea, here is one of my own, which is a bit smaller.  How about, instead of optionally trading spells for PP, you just make a MA start with less spells and a few PP, and they can build from there to be the kind of MA they prefer.  Let's try it out with the different priorities. 

A: 7 spells, 3 PP
B: 5 spells, 2 PP
C: 2 spells, 1PP

The numbers are just me spitballing, but it does seem to solve the problems presented here, and I think it makes more sense anyway. 

7+3 = 10  Same as allowing Spell Substitution that was suggested above.
5+2 = 7 Same as allowing Spell Substitution that was suggested above.
2+1 = 3 ..... Only 3 instead of 5,  Why is Magic-C Penalized?  Or why were the other 2 not penalized.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Honestly, if I were to radically change MA's anyway, I'd change the priority system for them as a whole to make them be more sensible for the new rules. For example, Priority A might be Magic 5 and Chi 2 (and vice versa). Although that would be a net 20 karma loss so probably some more fiddling required. Point is, you might as well redesign that part as well if you're changing that much.

I just boosted magic rating given at priorities by 50% round down. Split between 2 magic attributes. One for adepts one for magic. Initiation raises both limits. Pick Metamagic or adept power as normal. You buy up each attribute separately. So a 6/3 split would need 20 karma to raise the 3 and woukdnt need to initiate. The 6 would take 35 and would need a initiation. There is no buy for 5 karma thing at char gen.