NEWS

[SR4-20th] to [SR5]

  • 41 Replies
  • 8873 Views

Namikaze

  • *
  • Freelancer Ltd
  • Prime Runner
  • **
  • Posts: 4068
  • I'm a Ma'fan of Shadowrun!
« Reply #15 on: <10-03-14/1904:42> »
Medicineman, I'll give you the short version: you're wrong.  Now for the long version:

A character with a skill of 6 in SR4 was at capped skill.  That skill then becomes a 10, which is still a fair bit shy of the cap.  But let's look at how these ranks are defined by their respective books:

Quote from: SR4, Rating 6
The “best of the rest.” Maximum skill level for “rank-and-file” unnamed NPCs and starting characters.

Quote from: SR5, Rating 6
You could easily sell your skills on the open market. This is the maximum skill level for starting player characters.

Completely different - one is just shy of being the absolute maximum anyone can acquire (rating 7 in SR4) and the other is midway through possible progression.  Now let's look at what rank 10 says in SR5:

Quote from: SR5, Rating 10
You are famous, even among the very best in your field.

Doesn't that sound almost the same as SR4's description of rank 6?  Additionally, if you look at the NPCs that a skill-capped character will be facing in SR5, it's not unheard of for them to be facing enemies with a 10 or higher in at least one skill.  Why would you want that character to go from being the "best of the rest" to inferior to the same enemies they faced in SR4?

Let's look at what I mean about NPC opposition.  At skill-cap, it's probably not unheard of for a character to be facing Professional Rating 5 enemies.  In SR4, the highest dice pool for a Professional Rating 5 enemy (Red Samurai) is 12 (Agility 7 + Firearms skill group 5).  In SR5, that same enemy's highest dice pool is 16 (Agility 7 + Firearms skill group 9).  That's a pretty gigantic difference of 4 dice.  If you took a character who could deal with that Rating 5 enemy in SR4 and threw them right into SR5 against the same enemy they're going to either be slaughtered or at least have a hard time getting out alive.

Your suggestion that the karma values are the key factor in determining the value of the skill ignores all the other factors of the edition change.  Namely that all the NPCs are substantially more powerful along with the characters.  Because the damage codes are all different now too, there's no way to just take a SR4 character and move it into SR5 without doing some math.

OP, my best suggestion is to rebuild the character as closely as possible to the original intent of the build.  Spend karma and nuyen using the SR5 rules.  Your character will be a little weaker than before, but not substantially.  And you'll have a great handle on some of the mechanics of SR5 that have changed from SR4.  Limits are not the only thing that need to be changed, despite Medicineman's protestations.
Feel free to keep any karma you earned illicitly, it's on us.

Quote from: Stephen Covey
Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.

ZeConster

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2557
« Reply #16 on: <10-03-14/2002:48> »
If you look solely at the titles, the SR4 skill ratings translate to SR5 skill ratings as follows:
1 (Beginner) --> 1
2 (Novice) --> 2
3 (Professional) --> 6
4 (Veteran) --> 7
5 (Expert) --> 8
6 (Elite) --> 10
7 (Legendary) --> 11

Agonar

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 332
« Reply #17 on: <10-04-14/0157:26> »
I have to go with Medicineman here.  If you are converting NPCs, then use the conversion document.  But with PCs, they are created similarly enough in both editions that it wont hurt them any to start raising any 6's they have with karma, rather than giving them an automatic boost.

Imagine PCs that started not too long ago, that have earned 30 karma. They started with a 6, and used some of their karma for a second 6.  Now you switch editions.  Giving them an automatic bump to 10's is like giving them 68 free karma, per skill. So a new PC joining the group in sr5 isn't just 30 karma behind, now they are almost 140 karma behind.
GM of the Relative Dimension, Actual Play Podcast
www.relativedimension.com

Medicineman

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2310
« Reply #18 on: <10-04-14/0157:41> »
Quote
Medicineman, I'll give you the short version: you're wrong.
let's agree to disagree :)
Because my Perspective / my Reason is another than Yours.
From Your PoV I may be wrong, but not from Mine
Fact is
Starting Chars in SR4A are limited to Skill 6 (7 with talented)
Starting Chars in SR5 are limited to Skill 6 ( 7 with talented)
 ImO there is no need to Push converted SR4A Chars beyond the Limits of SR5 Chars
If You want to have Chars that start with a Skill of 8,9 or 10 thats fine, well I don't . And I would advice against it especially if You mix converted SR4A and new SR5 Chars in the same Group (see also Agonar's Post)
But to each his own

HokaHey
Medicineman
« Last Edit: <10-04-14/0201:32> by Medicineman »
http://english.bouletcorp.com/2013/08/02/the-long-journey/
---------------------------------------------------
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1V7fi5IqYw
---------------------------------------------------
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RYlAPjyNm8

All4BigGuns

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 7531
« Reply #19 on: <10-04-14/0204:38> »
And the SR4A character(s) brought over under your idea suddenly go from 'among the best in the world' in their field(s) to barely 'professional' in their fields. That is a MASSIVE change to the character.
« Last Edit: <10-04-14/0206:15> by All4BigGuns »
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

Tangled Currents (Persistent): 33 Karma, 60,000 nuyen

Medicineman

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2310
« Reply #20 on: <10-04-14/0435:31> »
And the SR4A character(s) brought over under your idea suddenly go from 'among the best in the world' in their field(s) to barely 'professional' in their fields. That is a MASSIVE change to the character.
but thats not my fault ! ;)
Blame it on CGL who raised the Scale of Skills up to 12 now in SR5
And also that starting Chars in SR5 are capped at Skill 6 which is barely professional
and that you can't play Elite Chars from the Start anymore (Skill 10 ) .
If You allow some Chars (converted SR4A) to be Elite, but you don't allow that to other Chars ( standard SR5 Charts)
than this seems unfair to me and to make It more balanced you should allow this to neither Char or to both Kind of Chars.

with a bit more balanced Dance
Medicineman
http://english.bouletcorp.com/2013/08/02/the-long-journey/
---------------------------------------------------
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1V7fi5IqYw
---------------------------------------------------
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RYlAPjyNm8

Dr Adder

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 17
« Reply #21 on: <10-04-14/0514:16> »
I guess the answer to my question is begin and keep playing with either SR4-20th or SR5, but keep the two separated.  :-\

So, in regard of the (real) money invested, it will be SR4-20th !  ;)

thanks for your argumented advices.

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9944
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #22 on: <10-04-14/0540:37> »
By the way, when I switched my campaign from SR4 to SR5, I basically went "okay, X karma and Y nuyen average per run, this many runs, you guys can spend this much after chargen in a less-limited chargen phase with the following limitations". So you can always play SR4 and take a look at SR5 while you're at it.

Which reminds me: I already used the SR5 Initiative system in my SR4 campaign, it's more fun.

Wish I could give more feedback but 2/3 of this topic is invisible to me so alas.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

ZeConster

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2557
« Reply #23 on: <10-04-14/0732:32> »
And the SR4A character(s) brought over under your idea suddenly go from 'among the best in the world' in their field(s) to barely 'professional' in their fields. That is a MASSIVE change to the character.
but thats not my fault ! ;)
Blame it on CGL who raised the Scale of Skills up to 12 now in SR5
So we should blame CGL for changing something when you're the one who refuses to use the methods they have provided for adjusting to said change? If you don't like the conversion guide, either make them do a rebuild in 5th and give them the Karma and nuyen they earned in 4th post-chargen, or go all-out and cap skills at 6 like in 4th.

Medicineman

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2310
« Reply #24 on: <10-04-14/0903:28> »
Quote
If you don't like the conversion guide, either make them do a rebuild in 5th and give them the Karma and nuyen they earned in 4th post-chargen,....
;D
But thats exactly what I do (and also what I advize other Players to do) ?!! And not only Karma and ¥ also connections Earned during Play ,etc.
And exactly for the Reason that I don't like the Conversion guide , 'cause I consider him unbalanced towards SR5 Chars.
Thats what I've been saying/writing all along

with a dance on his Road
Medicineman
http://english.bouletcorp.com/2013/08/02/the-long-journey/
---------------------------------------------------
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1V7fi5IqYw
---------------------------------------------------
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RYlAPjyNm8

ZeConster

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2557
« Reply #25 on: <10-04-14/1022:47> »
We seem to be miscommunicating. When I say "rebuild", I mean "make a character using 5th edition character creation rules that follows the concept of your 4th edition character". I do not mean this:
simply use the SR4A Chars
Because like I said, 5th edition chargen allows for more "solid" characters than you could make in 4th, so simply slapping a "5th edition" sticker on a 4th edition character is unfair to them.

Catchphrase!

Medicineman

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2310
« Reply #26 on: <10-04-14/1045:13> »
Quote
We seem to be miscommunicating. When I say "rebuild", I mean "make a character using 5th edition character creation rules that follows the concept of your 4th edition character". I do not mean this:
Hmmm, No we don't :)
I already "converted "4 out of my 6 chars that are old SR4A Chars by making them once more with the SR5 Prio System and adding all their earned Karma &  ¥.
 2 Chars are Brand new SR5 chars  and 2 more Chars are waiting to be " converted" by using the upcoming Karma or BP Rules from Running Harder/faster

with a few SR5 Dances
Medicineman
http://english.bouletcorp.com/2013/08/02/the-long-journey/
---------------------------------------------------
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1V7fi5IqYw
---------------------------------------------------
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RYlAPjyNm8

ZeConster

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2557
« Reply #27 on: <10-04-14/1131:09> »
Hmmm, No we don't :)
I already "converted "4 out of my 6 chars that are old SR4A Chars by making them once more with the SR5 Prio System and adding all their earned Karma &  ¥.
Considering you said "You can ( and should) simply use the SR4A Chars !" in your first post, "And if its a new Char he should not be converted at all but simpley remade within the new SR5 Rules" in your third, and "Thats what I've been saying/writing all along" on page 2, I'd say you're definitely communicating poorly.

Catchphrase!

Medicineman

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2310
« Reply #28 on: <10-04-14/1141:01> »
Hmmm, No we don't :)
I already "converted "4 out of my 6 chars that are old SR4A Chars by making them once more with the SR5 Prio System and adding all their earned Karma &  ¥.
Considering you said "You can ( and should) simply use the SR4A Chars !" in your first post, "And if its a new Char he should not be converted at all but simpley remade within the new SR5 Rules" in your third, and "Thats what I've been saying/writing all along" on page 2, I'd say you're definitely communicating poorly.

Catchphrase!
OK, English ain't my native Language. Sometimes I have trouble writing the right things :)
Both ways of carrying a SR4A Char to SR5   are OK (ImO)
either redo him with the Prio System
or simply use your SR4A Char ( just add Limits and change Equipment)

HougH!
Medicineman
http://english.bouletcorp.com/2013/08/02/the-long-journey/
---------------------------------------------------
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1V7fi5IqYw
---------------------------------------------------
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RYlAPjyNm8

All4BigGuns

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 7531
« Reply #29 on: <10-04-14/1149:16> »
OK, English ain't my native Language. Sometimes I have trouble writing the right things :)
Both ways of carrying a SR4A Char to SR5   are OK (ImO)
either redo him with the Prio System
or simply use your SR4A Char ( just add Limits and change Equipment)

HougH!
Medicineman

Don't forget to hamstring him if he's a typical Unarmed Combat Phys Ad.
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

Tangled Currents (Persistent): 33 Karma, 60,000 nuyen