[Tarislar]

Even Bullpup it isn't very concealable.
  Its like the short barreled shotgun, its +4 v/s +6 but that is still a bonus to a perception test, so its likely to be seen.
That it also has a GL attached to it makes me think it should honestly have a penalty to it, not a bonus.

[MijRai]

You forget other modifiers to the concealability, such as armor coats that cover more and things along those lines.  An underbarrel grenade launcher, depending on how it's mounted, wouldn't really affect concealabiity, by the way, provided it doesn't put the silhouette past the current one made by the stock/grip. 

[Tarislar]

You forget other modifiers to the concealability, such as armor coats that cover more and things along those lines.  An underbarrel grenade launcher, depending on how it's mounted, wouldn't really affect concealabiity, by the way, provided it doesn't put the silhouette past the current one made by the stock/grip.   

I'm not forgetting them.  I'm saying that unless the person has no perception skill &/or crap Intuition.  Your still likely to be seen.
Older editions all gave you a penalty for adding a GL.
For that matter the AK98 used to be unconcealable while the 97 at least had a small chance at concealment.

[Csjarrat]

Tbh, I'd like to see some concealibilty mods depending on meta size. An ar is going to be much easier to hide on a frame as large as a trolls, but significantly harder to hide on a dwarf.
A troll wearing a lined coat at night with a bit of palming skill should be ok unless someone good is really looking for it IMHO.

[Reaver]

Tbh, I'd like to see some concealibilty mods depending on meta size. An ar is going to be much easier to hide on a frame as large as a trolls, but significantly harder to hide on a dwarf.
A troll wearing a lined coat at night with a bit of palming skill should be ok unless someone good is really looking for it IMHO.

Is that a Human adapted AR on the Troll? or a Troll adapted weapon??? 

Size is only relative to size. An assault Rifle made for a troll to fire comfortably is going to be just as big as an Assault Rifle compared to a human....


Basically, it all comes out in the wash.

[Csjarrat]

Barrel length and stock shouldn't need to change too much, grips and trigger probably major areas of modification for troll. Overall frame of weapon should stay similar. Heavy pistol isn't going to end up the size of an SMG after all, would just need a new grip and such.

[Reaver]

Barrel length and stock shouldn't need to change too much, grips and trigger probably major areas of modification for troll. Overall frame of weapon should stay similar. Heavy pistol isn't going to end up the size of an SMG after all, would just need a new grip and such.

Things get a little more complex on a rifle however.
Distance between hands. Size of hands, the need for moving parts, balance, etc.


Don't forget, its a game. K.I.S.S.

[Xenon]

so in core there is possible one bullpup assault rifle
...but in turn it have a grenade launcher?

basically, if you are using core weapons then all assault rifles end up at +6.
no need to over-think things beyond that it seems

[Beaumis]

The FN HAR is in the core rules and has an image in the german book that makes it a bullpup rifle. Past editions also have it as a bullpup.

[Xenon]

The FN HAR is in the core rules and has an image in the german book that makes it a bullpup rifle. Past editions also have it as a bullpup.

Now you made me google pictutures of SR guns

HK G38 is a bullpup as well?



1 ) Cavalier Scout - semiautomatic hold-out pistol
2 ) Walther Palm Pistol - double barreled hold-out
3 ) Derringer - double barreled hold-out
4 ) Reacor Sting - "lemon-squeezer" type hold-out
5/6 ) Glock 38C/Contura Series - "fashionable" light pistols
7 ) Ares Light Fire 70 - super-light semi-auto
8 ) Beretta 101-T - light semi-auto
9 ) Colt Manhunter - heavy semi-auto pistol w/ laser sight
10 ) Savalette Guardian - heavy select-fire pistol
11 ) Ares Predator - heavy semi-auto pistol
12 ) Ares Predator II - heavy semi-auto pistol w/ smartlink
13 ) Ruger Super Warhawk - heavy single action revolver
14 ) Ceska Black Scorpion - machine pistol
15 ) Ares Crusader - machine pistol
16 ) Ingram Smartgun - smartlinked SMG
17 ) HK 225 TX - compact SMG w/ laser sight
18 ) Winchester Widow Maker - sawn-off shotgun
19 ) Remington Roomsweeper - compact autoloading shotgun pistol
20 ) Savalette Penetrator - large-caliber armor-piercing weapon for close range combat
21 ) HK 227-S - silenced SMG w/ laser sight
22 ) HK 227 - recoil-compensated SMG w/ laser sight


1 ) Colt M22A2 - complete assault weapon system
2 ) Colt M23 - basically stripped down M22A2 assault rifle
3 ) HK G38 - state-of-the-art modular assault rifle
4 ) FN HAR - bullpup assault rifle w/ laser sight
5 ) Franchi SPAS 22 - tube-fed assault shotgun w/ smartlink
6 ) Mossberg CMDT - clip-fed assault shotgun w/ laser sight
7 ) Defiance T-250 - semi-auto shotgun
8 ) Remington 750 - semi-automatic hunting/sport rifle

[Namikaze]

The whole bullpup thing is silly.  A bullpup design doesn't actually adjust the silhouette of most rifles very much at all.  Giving a bonus to concealability just seems like it's a slippery slope of pedantic arguments - as this thread can show.  Instead, just do away with the difference in concealability and make all assault rifles +6.  Done, simple.

[Tarislar]

Are you sure that is the correct pic for the FN-HAR?
It looks NOTHING like the pic in SR1 CRB which is much closer looking to a traditional FN-FAL used today.

[Xenon]

No

[Beaumis]

Biometal79's Images are fanart as far as I know. I've browsed his deviant art page a few times. (He's got some nice guns.) I could have sword the 3rd edition had a similar picture to his though, but I can't find it. Google image search finds several sources that are all relatively similar and range quite a few years back, so my search-fu may just be weak. Tarislar is right though, 1st and 2nd have the FN HAR as basically the FN FAL. I generally discount 4th when it comes to gun images because of the weird, generic and passionless style of that edition. (My subjective opinion of course.) I don't own the german book, but my GM does and there is an Image of the FN HAR in there that looks a lot like Biometal79's. I'll see if I can take a picture next time we play.

Anyway, I'd like to point out that, to me, the major point is not so much the concealment value, which is nice but the distinction between +4 and +6 is really "easy to detect" and "easier", but the size. Bullpup rifles stand a chance to fit into a normal to large sized backpack while standard ARs need something sports bag sized. Backpacks generally leave your hands free and are less conspicuous because they are that much more common. (sports bags are usually moved from car to building and back, backpacks are more of a walking around container.)

 

[Tarislar]

Tarislar is right though, 1st and 2nd have the FN HAR as basically the FN FAL. I generally discount 4th when it comes to gun images because of the weird, generic and passionless style of that edition.

With that section under the barrel, combined with Bullpup style,  I'd almost say that could be a variation of the Ares-Alpha picture updated for 4E style drawing.