[Lucean]

So we recently had a scene in Artifacts Unbound on a Zeppelin, where our Shaman disliked the way the negotiations went for our target object, that she called her four (three of them F6 and one great form F8) bound spirits onto the physical to aid us in combat. Well, they did not only aid, but essentially did the combat, along with the two F6 spirits of our Shintoist. The two melee focused characters didn't get to do much because of the added six guys doing Suppressive Fire with Assault Rifles. At least the last character got some good shots out.

So ...

We tried to do a bit of brainstorming about how that could have happened. Maybe it was because we simplified drain on Summoning into F-1, but it essentially boiled down to: Downtime Summoning and Binding.
The drain it may cause is irrelevant, because it could be slept off, since we have a relatively free style of switching GMs and mostly no fixed teams (players bring the character they want most of the time).

Fortunately the Shaman player has a bunch of characters and therefore the "risk" of such a situation happening again might be very slim, but nevertheless it left a bad taste in my mouth.

Any advice as to what we could try to at least remedy the effects a bit?

[Michael Chandra]

I had a Decker fire a rocket last session, if he fires a few of those he'd likely completely butcher any enemy he fights. It costs a lot of cash, but he can butcher tough enemies with it.

The same applies for Downtime Summoning and Binding. As long as you don't allow "resummoning until you score enough services", which Top Dog made a topic about a while ago after we considered it iffy, it's not that unbalanced. Those services are costly, even with the use of Edge. You're generally looking at an edged 400 per service on a Force 6, which means that this fight cost as much as an anti-vehicle rocket for the two mages, and that's excluding any other services they may have used before. And if the Spirits happened to get disrupted, they wouldn't be able to call on them for 3 weeks.

As for the Force 8: Do they have Magic 8? If not, there's the potential houserule in my list about them, which was a core rule in SR4 Street Magic. Makes them much harder.

Anyway, Binding costs points and nuyen. And something that costs a significant amount of resources tends to have a big impact. Rockets, expensive gas grenades, a bound army, they all cost effort and resources and when a player pulls out the big guns, it will quickly wallop many enemies. I don't think this is too big of a problem, as long as the summoning+binding rolls are made fairly, since it's what a Mage is all about. A conjurer can pull out a defensive army if they need to, but it likely costs them the same as a month of Low Lifestyle.

If you still want to heavily balance it out, the easiest solution is for everyone to agree to follow Missions rules and buy hits for the Summoning+Binding combo. With 16 versus 6/12 dice that's 3 services for 3k nuyen, so 1 for 1k. That way the players don't get to Edge for lots of services, plus they don't score as big an advantage, so the bound services are far more expensive.

[Reaver]

Keep in mind that spirits have a collective memory, emotions, feelings and drives. They are essentially NPCs.

If the player is constantly using his spirits as a "Goon" army, they are going to get pissy right quick. As the GM (s) this is your call to make and is there for you to help stop said "spirit armies" from getting out of control....

[Top Dog]

Like Michael said, bound spirits cost a lot, both in money and time. I'd suggest not simplifying Spirit Drain. F-1 is mostly ignorable, but if the spirit gets lucky and gets 4+ hits, you suddenly face 8+ drain instead, which will probably end up giving you a penalty on the binding roll (although to be fair, if the spirit is that lucky you'd probably not bind that one anyway). I assume you don't simplify the Binding drain, but you certainly shouldn't do that. Binding a spirit higher then force is very possibly lethal if the spirit rolls lucky and a strong deterrent; even a low-strength.

Quite frankly if someone spends the 13k nuyen (+6k from the other one), whatever karma it costs to get Great Form spirits, plus risks the potential of dying while binding, plus a significant skill point investment, then he should be able to occasionally roflstomp an encounter for the effort. He can't do it every time, because he'd go bankrupt.

If you still want to heavily balance it out, the easiest solution is for everyone to agree to follow Missions rules and buy hits for the Summoning+Binding combo. With 16 versus 6/12 dice that's 3 services for 3k nuyen, so 1 for 1k. That way the players don't get to Edge for lots of services, plus they don't score as big an advantage, so the bound services are far more expensive.

Nooononono. Forcing PC's to buy hits is a crime that should only be done in the most dire of circumstances.

[Reaver]

Or for balance reasons T.D.

A human mage, with an investment in Karma, skill, and magic could end up with a couple of pocket Nukey-Tanky goodness for almost no cost....

Which can make for less enjoyment for the rest of the table. If it comes to balancing the needs of the table over the "rights" of the character... well the table wins out.

[Top Dog]

Or for balance reasons T.D.

A human mage, with an investment in Karma, skill, and magic could end up with a couple of pocket Nukey-Tanky goodness for almost no cost....

Which can make for less enjoyment for the rest of the table. If it comes to balancing the needs of the table over the "rights" of the character... well the table wins out.

I'm not saying you shouldn't introduce measures to balance the table (although it should be determined that there is a legitimate need first). I'm saying buying hits is a terrible way to achieve that balance.

The 16-dice, Force 6 example is pretty much one of the few that is remotely fair. If the summoner had 15 dice instead - still a sizeable amount - he'd now be unable to bind a Force 6 spirit, ever. He'd get 2 services from both Force 5 and 4 spirits. Meanwhile, back at 16 dice summoning a force 7 spirit gives the same 3 services, with no chance for deadly drain (since the spirit always gets 3 hits on his binding resist roll, for 6P drain - painful, but survivable in downtime).

Buying hits should be reserved for things where Net Hits don't meaningfully matter, where a character is good enough and comfortable enough (eg not stressed) to just succeed at something he's good at. It shouldn't be used to weaken players when binding stuff, because it's a terrible rule for that application.

[Lucean]

Yes, 8 drain damage could matter, if it was during play time. But since Binding is done in advance and I think they don't summon spirits above their MAG rating (so yes, that would mean MAG 8 for the Shaman, but I don't know exactly as I was one of the players), the drain would be irrelevant for the actual game.

Your cost arguments look fair, though I don't think that Rocket Launchers should be in that equation

Maybe one could introduce some "no-Edge during downtime" agreement as possible solution.

[Top Dog]

Yes, 8 drain damage could matter, if it was during play time. But since Binding is done in advance and I think they don't summon spirits above their MAG rating (so yes, that would mean MAG 8 for the Shaman, but I don't know exactly as I was one of the players), the drain would be irrelevant for the actual game.

Your cost arguments look fair, though I don't think that Rocket Launchers should be in that equation

Maybe one could introduce some "no-Edge during downtime" agreement as possible solution.

8 drain matters if you then try to bind that spirit, since you'd be suffering wound penalties. Although that only really applies to physical damage - you can rest in between if it's stun.

Edge during downtime or not does make a big difference. I wouldn't go "No-Edge" myself, but make it cost something meaningful - say, you can use up to one edge from the last run (if you have left); any more comes from the upcoming run. That way you can still edge important rolls (which you should be able to do, IMHO) but you have to either plan for it or give up something for your next run.

[Lucean]

This take on Edge sounds more fair, yes, as Availability tests would be another thing that more often than not would happen offplay.

[Sabato Kuroi]

Please remind me ,arent spirits automatically realeased from their services/banished  when the mage is KOed?Even bound ones?

It is never a good thing for the mage to draw all the heat.A reasonably smart awakened opponent will make it top priority to find the source of the spirit army and then will tell his buddies to geek that source  first. If the player has invested time,karma,skills etc and has become better it is not his fault.Spirits can be countered though.

[Michael Chandra]

I'm currently searching through the rules but in SR5 I cannot find when they go uncontrolled. In SR4 uncontrolled was only if drain knocked out the magician during an inititial Binding or they critglitched it. I cannot find anything about losing the services otherwise.

[Lucean]

I didn't even find it for SR4. Aside from going uncontrolled during binding I couldn't find references to losing spirtis when losing consciousness.
We always play it that taking the mage out will remove unbound spirits and may remove bound ones, but is there actual rules text for it?

As to the situation, the Shamans next action was to cast Invisibility to prevent the "geek the mage first".

[Reaver]

Dead, yes.... (loosely)

But just K.O'd or asleep? Not so much... and there is even fluff to support that they stick around... at least during sleep...

[Michael Chandra]

You can't boss them around anymore, so if the enemies retreat there's nothing to make the Spirits follow the enemies or your allies. But they probably won't get automatically disrupted and I suspect they'd complete their services.

Y'know, I really miss the "go follow his orders" service in SR5.

[Sabato Kuroi]

As to the situation, the Shamans next action was to cast Invisibility to prevent the "geek the mage first".

If he  summoned an army of spirits and then had the time to cast Invisibility, staying away from harm for the rest of the fight  then your GM was going easy on you.Which is not a bad thing.Players using a tactic for the first time which works wonders and takes the GM by surprise Is not a bad thing.I suspect  that your GM will adapt though.And that's the beauty of pnp rpgs.

Well in my games, if the mage/shaman is KO'd / killed then the unbound  spirits are banished.As for the bound spirits well I'd say they may stick around to guard the fallen summoner if he's still alive and  they're on friendly terms.