[All4BigGuns]

Point to where it states that everyone you meet will view you as "A Freak". That is what is ridiculous and where you are incorrect, and that is the point where the problem arose (that is further than the reduced Social Limit goes).

[Glyph]

Cyberware decreases your social limit, imposes possible social penalties for obvious augmentations (although not every NPC will be transhuman-phobic), requires fake licenses, can be detected by security scanners, and is vulnerable to hacking if you leave its wireless functions enabled (or works at reduced functionality if you leave the wireless off).  No one is arguing against any of that (or at least, no one is arguing that this is not the RAW).

People are arguing against imposing additional, arbitrary negative NPC reactions to the PC.  Players who take augmentations opt into penalties, but they shouldn't have to opt into GM bias.

[Namikaze]

A4BG, please re-read the section on page 23 of the core book titled 'Wares: Paying With Your Soul.  Also, please be aware that any time a player voluntarily reduces their Essence in order to gain something, they are making the conscious decision to make that trade.  That is the very definition of "opting into" something.  You are "opting", which is to make a choice, "into" the negatives and positives that come with that choice.

Just because you feel that game "balance" is somehow important to you doesn't mean that it's as important to everyone else.  The only balance that matters is that between the players and the GM.  Missions has strict rules specifically to make sure that the public games are "balanced" but anything outside the Missions framework is "opting into" the game that the GM and players develop.  Some of those games will be very heavily focused on numbers and specifics, other games will be more like the "cooperative storytime" that you described.  But all of these are entirely optional - hey, there's that root work "opt" again - for the player and the GM.  And most importantly, for you and for everyone else.

If you can't respect the opinions of others, then you can hardly expect people to respect your opinions as well.

[MijRai]

Point to where it states that everyone you meet will view you as "A Freak". That is what is ridiculous and where you are incorrect, and that is the point where the problem arose (that is further than the reduced Social Limit goes).

Actually, I never said 'freak' until you brought up the term.  I was using your terminology to get the point across at that point.  On top of that, while you might have various issues from being a 'wared up mo-fo, not everyone is going to consider you a freak.  A bunch will, but probably not your transhumanists, your fellow 'wared-up razorboys, etc.  You also seem to have deleted the post where you brought up the word freak, but I quoted it for reference.  On top of that, you might want to be more specific as to what you're saying is 'incorrect' at that point, because a blanket statement doesn't help in this situation. 

As Namikaze mentioned (and I referenced), page 23 describes the situation.  It is a fact of the game, and really; if a person literally replaces half of their body with cybernetic parts because they want to, how are they not a freak?  I'm not making any aspersions against people who could be considered freaks, but it doesn't mean the term doesn't apply.  At that point, I'd almost just flat-out apply the Freaks sidebar from Run Faster depending on how short of Essence they are and call it a day.  Regardless, they opted into the deal, sans the GM drugging them and 'waring them up (a dick move) or feeding them to a vampire (a possibly dick move, depending on the situation). 

[Lucean]

And how would you do that?
Take an Elf with CHA 6, WIL 4, Ess 0.x, wearing a Vashon Island Ace of Coins in the right place. He'd have a Social Limit of 9.
Having full 6.0 Essence would increase this limit by 2, but since a limit only matters for really high dicepools or the lucky, he should be more or less unaffected by his low essence.
Of course, in case he fails an opposed test because he has 9 hits and the opponent 10, you might argument with his low essence having impacted the negotiation/bluff/whatever. But imho this should be the only case: when essence causes you to lose hits.

Again, you're talking technicals; one wonders whether your games are just figuring out modifiers and rolling dice, or roleplay.

"Y'know, I like Sam.  He's charming, he's witty, he's reasonable, and I like the way he smells.  But there's something off about the guy - he's perfectly witty, his teeth are too straight, and he's reasonable just to the point where I want to say 'hell no!!' but can't, y'know?  Unnerving."

And one wonders, if you're talking about playing The Sims or something related instead of Shadowrun ...

The "social stigma" would be far more appropriate as a situational modifier than as part of a limit, which might not even impact your performance at all. Because Essence as part of your Social Limit doesn't care at all about the target of your social interaction. A Johnson could be really glad about seeing his contractors as such professional beings, using so much potential to become better at their job, but another could be more frightened by that thought, maybe because he's awakened him/herself.

By forcing that "unnerving feeling" upon your players you are inventing mechanics that are not represented by the rules. The only thing coming close is that "wrong attire/wrong look" for etiquette, although that's also a bit of a stretch because of its aim at clothing.

So for all those who think like wyrm, I'd suggest to go with houseruled situational modifiers to have a reason to screw your players. Have fun with finding the right one for each situation.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

A couple of points, please.

1) You asked how I would 'do that', referring to me recommending GMs playing up the social aspect of the thing.  You gave a technical answer (lower Social Limit), I gave a RPed one which does nothing to counter your technical answer, and in fact reinforces it - 'I can't say no, but he unnerves me.'  Up to a point, that remains so - 'I can't say no' - until you reach that point, meaning the decreased limit of 'he unnerves me'.
2) At no time did I say that I was forcing that 'unnerving feeling' on players; it's for the GM to RP the entire rest of the world, as couched by NPCs and assisted by how the numbers (which you so readily and ably give) interact.  You asked how I would 'do that', which I took to mean how I would RP a -1 to a character's limit, whether PC or NPC.  If it's an NPC, you can describe their lowered limit in just the way I said above.  Or you can have an NPC commenting on another NPC.

I'm not inventing any mechanics; I am giving a way to bring '-X to Social Limit' to life in a roleplaying manner, in contrast to simply regarding the technical character information and noticing he's got a 0.6 Essence and a -1 to his Social Limit because of it.  Saying that I'm houseruling situational modifiers, or requiring them, or whatever, just ain't so; you're the one who's suggesting them, not I.

[Glyph]

How would you guys play up the disadvantages of awakened characters in social situations?  Mages can look at another level of reality, channel awesome energy through their bodies, and communicate with alien intelligences (and compel them to perform tasks).  Adepts have superhuman abilities, and like street samurai, they can operate on a whole different level than all of those slow, half-blind, pitifully limited "ordinary" humans.  That is certainly enough to give them the same kind of psychotic superiority complex that someone heavily augmented can have.  And you could say that awakened characters can feel a bit "off" to mundanes.  Also, they are alternately idolized and feared by a populace whose understanding of magic is full of paranoia, misinformation, and unrealistic trid shows.

All types of shadowrunners have ways that they can make others feel ill at ease.  It's fine to do so for augmented characters, but I don't think they need to be singled out for it.  But GMs need to discuss things with their players - if having a fractional Essence means more than just the penalties in the book, the player should know what he or she is getting into.

[Namikaze]

Situational modifiers are purposefully vague and should be used by GMs appropriately.  If Mr. Johnson wants to hire a group with a cybered-up runner, he'll probably change his attitude appropriately.  Same with mages and other awakened runners.  The opposite can also be true.  There are no hard and fast rules on this - the GM needs to make a decision on it, generally on the fly.  No rule set can cover every possible permutation of things.

[Reaver]

How would you guys play up the disadvantages of awakened characters in social situations?  Mages can look at another level of reality, channel awesome energy through their bodies, and communicate with alien intelligences (and compel them to perform tasks).  Adepts have superhuman abilities, and like street samurai, they can operate on a whole different level than all of those slow, half-blind, pitifully limited "ordinary" humans.  That is certainly enough to give them the same kind of psychotic superiority complex that someone heavily augmented can have.  And you could say that awakened characters can feel a bit "off" to mundanes.  Also, they are alternately idolized and feared by a populace whose understanding of magic is full of paranoia, misinformation, and unrealistic trid shows.

All types of shadowrunners have ways that they can make others feel ill at ease.  It's fine to do so for augmented characters, but I don't think they need to be singled out for it.  But GMs need to discuss things with their players - if having a fractional Essence means more than just the penalties in the book, the player should know what he or she is getting into.

While essence has nothing to do with if you will awaken or not, there could be some psychological scaring from the said awakening. But that would depend of the awakened individual, and just how smoothly their awakening went. (some describe it as going made, some as a bliss full experience.) From there, it depends on how and what they focus their magic on or into. A combat mage or adept is probably going to suffer from many personality flaws (and just no the ones you mentioned). Or, a Devote person could see themselves as "touched by God" and devote themselves entirely to healing magic. (although, for me, the whole "touched by God" thing also speaks to their psychological framework)

But, deep down, like all people in positions of power they have an "Ego issue" (to understated it). But does that translate into a social modifier? Being vain and shallow and thinking your are better then everyone else sounds like just the attitude of 99.999999999999999999% of Johnsons and corp execs. DO they get a social modifier too?

Essence is a very vague term for the intangible thing that makes you a "person" and not just meat. when you muck around with your body, adding in cyberware/bioware your not just replacing your arm or your eye, you are removing part of that intangible "spark" that makes you, you; And replacing it with something artificial, alien. The more you cut out, the more of "you", you remove. Sure you know your name, and your address, and your favorite color. You remember all the details that you learned through life. Nothing changes what you know.

What changes is how you respond. Someone tells a joke and everyone laughs, but you. You don't see the humor. IN fact, what is humor? You know it's supposed to be funny and make you laugh, but how? Why? What is the point?
You have a sister that you haven't seen in years. Now that you are augmented and in "the Biz" you've made enemies. One of them tracks your sister down and holds her hostage demanding you come to him. Why would you do that? I mean, she's your sister yes. But what does that mean? She's just a person that you haven't seen in years. There is nothing that sets her apart from anyone else, other then that she is blood. But what does that even mean? Should you go out and get hurt or even killed over some, basically random, person just because they are your sister? As you ponder this dilemma, you go back to watching the infomercial on the Speedy Blender Pro. Hey it's got a smoothie selection for your Protein shakes!


It's thoughts and responses like this that are responsible for the social hit due to cyberware.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Which is why Kuhner & Co. had a 'deviation from baseline' as well, for both cyber- and magic-heavy characters.    The issues you're discussing, Reaver, are - or at least can be - the same for a mage.  Who is your sister, but someone who simply cannot do anything real and lasting?  What is humor, but a paltry attempt to impinge upon the true essence of the world?  Sure, Johnson has a 'I can do this, and you suck' attitude, but unless he's a mage too, it's just money and position, and those can be taken away in an instant.  Magic is Power, and someone who can turn Johnson into a man-sized bonfire just by thinking hard about it is someone who is going to think differently about the universe and their position in it.

'Vanilla' Shadowrun doesn't account for that.  To be fair, neither do I, in my more current playing.  But nonetheless, it should affect the mage's interactions as much as the implant level does.

[Glyph]

While essence has nothing to do with if you will awaken or not, there could be some psychological scaring from the said awakening. But that would depend of the awakened individual.

My whole point is that augmentation, too, should depend on the individual.  Sure, keep the quantifiable penalties.  But someone with a low Essence isn't going to automatically not care if a sibling is kidnapped.  That should be the player's choice.  The comparatively minor effect on social skills means that even for low Essence, the effects are going to be subtle, something slightly "off" about an individual rather than a cyberzombie-like detatchment.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Hence my approach.  If a player wants to make their character worse (i.e. take NQs for them), more power to them.  But there'll always be at least that subtle 'off'-ness about them.

[Sabato Kuroi]

Let's say you got multiple  cyberlimbs,  damage compensator, platelet factories, bone lacing maybe etc
You feel less pain when you're hurt.When this happens, fear starts to lose its meaning.Survival insticts are not as sharp as they used to be, you must remind your body to take care of itself.So, you don't care as much as you did.

Let's say you got reflex recorders, knowsofts, skillsofts etc
You don't need to try as much anymore.You don't care as much.Why take the long way again?The only thing you need is nuyen.Nuyen will bring better 'ware.Who needs people anyway?They're dumb, they're clueless and they try to slow you down.


I love the whole idea behind augmentations and essence.When you start losing  all those little things that make you human, you must find something to keep you from becoming a zombie.A code of honor, appreciation of arts, ideals etc.Things that humans can appreciate but are products of all those little things you are on the verge of losing forever.So much potential for roleplay.

I really don't think any negative qualities are required.IMHO If a character is more machine than flesh and he behaves  like nothing's changed either he's pretending(so more potential for tragedy and good rp) or  his player just doesn't get it.Yes the way to roleplay this loss of Essence should be the player's choice (mainly) but the GM should be able to provide some interesting opportunities for more rp, depending on  the type of augmentations and the cosmetic changes of the character.
 

[Glyph]

I think people keep confusing low Essence with being a cyberzombie.  If a player doesn't play his character as an apathetic robot going through the mere motions of being human, it might not be because he "just doesn't get it", but because he doesn't have the ability to read the GM's mind.  A shadowrunner with a high level of augmentations is desperately seizing any edge available to keep ahead of the power curve, in one of the Sixth World's most dangerous professions.  I have a hard time seeing any street samurai losing his survival instincts or drive for self-improvement, when his augmentations were taken to enhance those very things.

Augmentations offer plenty of roleplaying hooks, but if anything, Essence is overemphasized by too many people, and all of the other roleplaying opportunities get drowned out by the tired old "cyberware eats your soul" trope - when Essence is mainly a metagame limit to how much stuff you can cram into your body.  Because again, the affects of low Essence are comparatively subtle.

I prefer to look at the other ways augmentations can affect a character.  I played a street samurai who had mnemonic enhancers, and hated them, because when you do violence for a living, being able to recall it in perfect detail is a bad thing.  Another character, not one of mine, had skillwires, and felt curiously distant when using them; it was like the software was doing it, not her - which could be both good and bad, depending.  I think of synaptic boosters, and I remember all of the times I am stuck in a grocery line behind someone plodding like they're in slow motion, and you want to scream "Hurry up!"  Having synaptic boosters, when most people don't, could feel like that, all the time.  Augmentations can be cool, too.  They can turn you from the nerd who got stuffed into lockers into someone who is buff and tough.  They can give you sensations that humans couldn't experience before.  They can make you literally superhuman.

Sure, the guy with cyberlimbs, a pain regulator, and skillwires might feel inhuman, disconnected from his own actions, a bit numb.  But what about the guy with tricked-out cybereyes, muscle augmentation and toner, tailored pheromones, cerebral boosters, and a sleep regulator?  Especially if before, he was a puny specimen with insomnia and poor eyesight?  He probably feels great.

[Sterling]

The idea of someone who used to have poor eyesight now feeling great because they've got tricked-out cybereyes is an interesting one to me.  Yes, the ability to wake up in the morning and see the clock without scrabbling for glasses is fantastic, and no longer tripping over a shoe in the middle of the night because you now have low-light vision is a trivial yet satisfying bonus.

However... the fact remains that your eyes are gone, and instead you have a pair of cameras installed.  Just as when watching a movie you can tell the difference between HD and Standard definition you notice your eyesight is subtly different.  You no longer get dry eyes so the need to blink as often is gone.  No more squinting in bright sunlight - you've got Flare compensation that kicks in as necessary.  Pretty soon you adjust to these changes and you can't understand why people try to avoid your gaze when talking face-to-face.  They're probably completely unaware of doing so but rather they find that their eyes are starting to water sympathetically because of that unblinking stare.

Yes, the benefits of the hardware outweigh the petty downsides, but the lack of these little weaknesses are enough that people unconsciously notice that you are "different", and unfortunately humanity as a species does not readily embrace what is different.  I live in an area known for its links to the military and yet you only have to see the unconscious reactions of people to wounded servicemen-and-women with missing limbs and/or prosthetics to realise the truth of this.

This, to me, is the quality of Essence - the more you deviate from the baseline in appearance the more the general populace is unconsciously disquieted.