[LordGrizzle]

Hello!

We had our first run today that involved a decker in the Party. I am not really strong on the Matrix rules in 5E just yet, so I might have done something wrong. But this is what happened:

Our decker (technomancer) tried to hack a into the commlink of some rich kid he thought might have some Piece of Information so he started out doing Hack on the Fly rolling 11 dice with a Sleaze Attribute of 4 against the Targets Intuition + Firewall. The rich kid had a decent Intuition of 4 and an expensive commlink Rating 5 -> 9 dice. So our decker rolled 5 times trying to put just one mark on their resulting in a bunch of rolls which all failed. The vitim always scored at least 4 hits which was bad because the decker could never go above 4 hits due to Sleaze.

So, I am asking myslef now: Did I do something wrong? Was such a powerfull commlink or such a high Intuition too much? Did I just roll too good? Is decking just supposed to be this hard? Did he build his character wrong and or bad with just 4 on Sleaze?

Thanks in the advance!

[Namikaze]

First off, your decker didn't do the write steps here.  If you know you're going to do a Sleaze action and you have a Free Action to spare, reconfigure your deck to make your limit higher.  As a former boss of mine once told me: proper prior planning prevents piss poor performance.

- EDIT: I just realized you were using the term decker to describe a technomancer.  Confusing!  A decker uses a cyberdeck, while a technomancer uses their brain.  The generic term is "hacker."  As a result, reconfiguration isn't possible in this scenario, so the character should have instead tried using Matrix Perception to identify everything he could about the target before attacking it.  Also, the technomancer has access to nifty Complex Forms that can allow him to do all kinds of cool things.  Puppeteer for instance, can be used to force a target device to offer MARKs to the technomancer.  For a non-technomancer target, it's almost impossible to resist.  Thus, it has a HUGE Fading formula.

Second, the target should have been made aware of the hacking attempt after the first failed Hack on the Fly action.  What the target does with that info is up to you though.  Additionally, every hit the target got while defending these attacks would have added to the decker's Overwatch Score.  Based on what you've said, the decker would have had at least 20 points before getting into the 'link.  That means that after doing the hack, the decker better reboot or in a few minutes he'll be Converged.

[8-bit]

He built his character wrong. You, as a GM, did nothing wrong. Well, okay, he didn't build his character wrong, but he didn't build it effectively. What are his other Matrix stats, out of curiosity?

Assuming he bothered to figure out it was a high quality commlink (if he didn't, again, his fault; although you can always have "minor" suggestions), he shouldn't have been trying to Hack on the Fly. 11 dice is not nearly enough dice to attempt to hack a high rating commlink, and a Sleaze of 4 is even worse.

Decking (actually, the term is Hacking; Decking is using a Cyberdeck) is hard. It's probably the most specialized role in the game, and it requires much more investment and higher dice pools. I have the feeling that your Technomancer did not invest enough into it. It's an easy mistake to make, especially when just starting out 5E. As a GM, I would just talk with him and realize that you need to do one of three things. A) Lower the opposition to the level of your player, B) Let the guy remake his character to be better at Hacking, or C) Explain to him that he might have trouble Hacking some things, and if he's okay with that, then all is well and good.

[Imveros]

yeah he just needed more dice. The Decker at my table throws 18 dice for hack on the fly. Also 4 hits on nine dice several times is very lucky. If matrix is going to be his thing perhaps he should get some specializations, buy the Codeslinger positive quality, move some stats around, and maybe summon a few sprites to aid him to both get more dice and more limit

[LordGrizzle]

Second, the target should have been made aware of the hacking attempt after the first failed Hack on the Fly action.  What the target does with that info is up to you though.  Additionally, every hit the target got while defending these attacks would have added to the decker's Overwatch Score.  Based on what you've said, the decker would have had at least 20 points before getting into the 'link.  That means that after doing the hack, the decker better reboot or in a few minutes he'll be Converged.

I am Aware of that, but played this dude up as not really Matrix savy, so he clicked the alert away like most People I know in real life just Close Virus alerts and Firewall alerts in real life (not smart, I know).

He built his character wrong. You, as a GM, did nothing wrong. Well, okay, he didn't build his character wrong, but he didn't build it effectively. What are his other Matrix stats, out of curiosity?

Assuming he bothered to figure out it was a high quality commlink (if he didn't, again, his fault; although you can always have "minor" suggestions), he shouldn't have been trying to Hack on the Fly. 11 dice is not nearly enough dice to attempt to hack a high rating commlink, and a Sleaze of 4 is even worse.

Decking (actually, the term is Hacking; Decking is using a Cyberdeck) is hard. It's probably the most specialized role in the game, and it requires much more investment and higher dice pools. I have the feeling that your Technomancer did not invest enough into it. It's an easy mistake to make, especially when just starting out 5E. As a GM, I would just talk with him and realize that you need to do one of three things. A) Lower the opposition to the level of your player, B) Let the guy remake his character to be better at Hacking, or C) Explain to him that he might have trouble Hacking some things, and if he's okay with that, then all is well and good.

Well, thanks for the clarification, I just thought decker replaced the word hacker from 4th Edition so I was assuming there are deckers and riggers and then there are decker technomancers and rigger technomancers, thanks for clarifying that.

Well, if it's that specialized I think I should just lower the Opposition a Little bit, because I know my Group reaaally dislikes building specialized characters, I also usually have runs that challenge a wide variety of skills, but just haven't worked out the right difficulty in the Matrix then (I am just used to even the best commlink being worth squat if you aren't Matrix savy, not putting IC on it etc.).

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

Yeah, 4th was the odd ball, actually. Deckers (and their decks) have been with SR since 1st Ed. Gone are the days of commlinks running advanced programs, such as IC. Matrix is my weakest knowledge for the rules, but for either technomancers or deckers a dice pool of 14ish is kinda low. Also, currently technomancers have an even harder time, due to some skrewy rules. But to be a good decker/technomancer, it is a heavily specialized role.

[Herr Brackhaus]

Yeah, 4th was the odd ball, actually. Deckers (and their decks) have been with SR since 1st Ed. Gone are the days of commlinks running advanced programs, such as IC. Matrix is my weakest knowledge for the rules, but for either technomancers or deckers a dice pool of 14ish is kinda low. Also, currently technomancers have an even harder time, due to some skrewy rules. But to be a good decker/technomancer, it is a heavily specialized role.

I would say that depends entirely on your opposition.

Matrix game mechanics can be challenging, and I will concede the fact that accomplishing pretty much anything as a hacker requires multiple successes. This does exacerbate the need for slightly higher dice pools as a hacker compared to most other roles, in my opinion, but I maintain that any given dice pool cannot be quantified as too high or low without also referencing the opposition.

[Darzil]

Well, this was unlucky (according to my calculations in the table I posted yesterday in GM toolbox 11 dice vs 9 is around 53% success chance, though that assumes limit is not involved, and when you do, that 35% chance to roll more than 3 hits from 9 dice is going to be common - Hmm, maybe I'll see if I can upgrade that spreadsheet with a configurable limit). Edit - Updated spreadsheet to allow a configurable limit. With limit 4, 11 dice vs 9 dice is a 46% success chance. Raising limit to 6 gives a 53% chance.

If it were a decker, you'd be able to get to 6 limit for hack on the fly with the lowest deck (if you put the 4 in sleaze, and Exploit program), as a Technomancer I'd be wanting Intuition pretty high, as it's not only your limit here, but also figures into a lot of actions and defences.

I'm not 100% sure whether you have to hack into the commlink and then the file, or whether you can just see the file and hack it directly, if the latter. It'd need Matrix Perception, as you only automatically spot devices within 100m, and then you'd be trying to add one mark, disarm databomb (if any), remove the file protection (if any) with Crack File and then edit the file with Edit File. However, as a Technomancer you could instead just use Matrix Perception to spot the file, then Puppeteer (needing 2 hits) to get the device to send you the file (assuming the person isn't using the commlink, as then it becomes a Persona and you can't use Puppeteer). Or if you wanted to do it the decker way, use Diffusion of Firewall first to reduce the Commlink's firewall. (Note, this is just from a quick look at the rules, I've not played a Technomancer)

[Namikaze]

I'm not 100% sure whether you have to hack into the commlink and then the file, or whether you can just see the file and hack it directly,

You can hack the file directly, though it will use the stats of the commlink and the kid to determine it's resistance pool.  Basically giving it the same defense as the rest of the commlink.

[gilga]

I think your player could have also used a bit of edge to get the work done. 

[firebug]

You can't blame the player too much--  It's the pitfalls of playing a Technomancer.

Without going all out and doing something like taking Exceptional Attribute (LOG) and always being on Psyche, 12 is the highest pool a TM can have (not counting specializations).  If they didn't max out their LOG for whatever reason, 11 is gonna have to do...  The issue is that it really can't.  That is, IMO, the bread-and-butter problem with TMs in 5th right now.  Hacking is designed on the capabilities of a decker PC, and deckers can easily begin with a minimum of 14 dice in more than half of the matrix actions, with skill points to spare on specializations.

Also, I assume that poor TM was doing their hacking in AR, which really really sucks.

Your TM can try and use Psyche and VR to add +3 to their rolls, but otherwise, they're stuck with that and are going to need to burn a lot of Karma improving their skill ratings as quick as possible.

In the mean time, if he has good RES and Compiling skill, sprites can do the job well enough.  They don't share marks and can't as easily communicate with your team, and of course always have an overwatch score, so they can't do everything.  But "over compiling" a Level 7 Sprite will make it easy enough handle a single "matrix encounter".  There's risk involved of course.  One that's only 6 (assuming 6 RES) can be passable, especially if you use a Fault Sprite for combat (as they have a very high Attack attribute) but won't be a whole lot better than the TM.

[Namikaze]

Without going all out and doing something like taking Exceptional Attribute (LOG) and always being on Psyche, 12 is the highest pool a TM can have (not counting specializations).

You mean 18.  12 for skill + 6 for Logic.  Then you get into buffing things with qualities, drugs, etc.

[firebug]

I meant at character creation.

[halflingmage]

Overall hacking is harder in 5th edition than in 4th.  With karma a technomancer can do things that no hacker can ever touch, but straight out of the box they are a bit weaker than a normal decker.  Technomancers are hard to build well, and fresh out of character creation they suck at everything other than matrix.  They will typically have a few less dice in their basic dice pools than a well built hacker.

Max logic.  Consider exceptional attribute logic.  Take specializations, and look at the codeslinger quality.  A technomancer with 7 logic 6 hacking +2 spec for devices and codeslinger Hack on the Fly could be rolling 17 dice on that comlink and 15 against hosts.  Also, be sure to leverage your sprites and complex forms for maximum effect.  As getting marks on the target is key to just about everything else you do on the matrix, the player needs to bring more than 11 dice to the effort. 

Edit: also, in terms of limits, there was just some rotten dice karma going on here.  To generate 4 hits with 9 dice is above average, and to do it repeatedly is just hard luck.  Still, a limit of more than 4 would have been good.  Logic is most important, but the TM needs to figure out if they are more of a combat hacker or a stealth hacker.  The appropriate attribute should have been higher.  That way those higher dice pools we just talked about can overcome the unusually good rolls that come up from time to time.

[Darzil]

Presumably part of the reason Technomancers dice pools are lower than Deckers is that Technomancers can lower the opponent's pools with Resonance actions? Or indeed just make things happen with Puppeteer? (though I guess both of these work only on devices, not Personas? Or summon Sprites, which can go to much high dice pools than Agents? If they could equal Decker's pools and do all these things they'd be rather broken.

Edit : Actually I suspect some clarification on targeting devices when the device is part of the persona is needed. Per RAW you cannot. This seems to make a load of the technomancer complex forms far less useful. In particular, you cannot reduce an opponent's deck's attributes when it is in use, you cannot buff an allies deck's attributes when it is in use, you cannot make a device do something when it is in use, you cannot reduce noise to the opponent's device, you cannot make an opponent think something else has happened in the matrix.  (in use here meaning user using it to connect to the Matrix, so will normally be Commlink, Deck or Rig)