[SquirrelDude]

So one of the things that's come to annoy me from a simulationist perspective is how ammunition is sorted out and has to be purchased by weapon category. As someone with even a cursory knowledge of weapons, it drives me crazy that the ammunition for my light pistols doesn't work in my machine pistols doesn't work in my submachine guns. Obviously, a lot of this is done for reasons of game balance (see: No SMG has a base AP value), and this is more something I am trying to do as a thought experiment, but it is still something I'd like to try out.

The basic concept is that I'd trade weapon DV for ammunition DVs. Weapons would instead be listed as being able to fire a certain caliber of ammunition. That ammunition could then be covered across multiple weapons and weapon groups. Ideally, weapons that currently do the same DV+AP would also use the same ammunition.

[Squirrel]

How do you take barrel length into account?

Imho you can improve SR in many ways. This is unlikely one of them. No real gain from switching the listings around. Seriously why would an Ares gun even fire ammunition from saeder even if it is the same weapon class or in your argument the same caliber? I would not be surprised if each con has their own ammunition as a form of costumer bond.

If you wont to be on the save side, limit ammo to each gun individually. I have rare had the problem of even needing to use ammo from a different gun. My characters don't spam that stuff. And if they did, they'd carry supply.

The current rule is ok. It is not perfect, but my point is, that this part of the rules does not need attention. The gain is just not worth the effort.

[Shaidar]

It has been tried many times all the way back to SR1, and it doesn't work out well.

If you want more realism try out GURPS Cyberpunk with GURPS Fantasy Races thrown in.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Or go see - if you can find them - either Raygun's Firearms or Blackjack's Firearms.  They quite extensively revised weapon, ammo, and armor rules to cleave to a more simulationist perspective.

[All4BigGuns]

So one of the things that's come to annoy me from a simulationist perspective is how ammunition is sorted out and has to be purchased by weapon category. As someone with even a cursory knowledge of weapons, it drives me crazy that the ammunition for my light pistols doesn't work in my machine pistols doesn't work in my submachine guns. Obviously, a lot of this is done for reasons of game balance (see: No SMG has a base AP value), and this is more something I am trying to do as a thought experiment, but it is still something I'd like to try out.

The basic concept is that I'd trade weapon DV for ammunition DVs. Weapons would instead be listed as being able to fire a certain caliber of ammunition. That ammunition could then be covered across multiple weapons and weapon groups. Ideally, weapons that currently do the same DV+AP would also use the same ammunition.

To be honest, this is a "It ain't broke, so don't try and 'fix' it." scenario. All you'd end up doing is creating an overcomplicated mess for no real benefit, IMO.

[Medicineman]

Or go see - if you can find them - either Raygun's Firearms or Blackjack's Firearms.  They quite extensively revised weapon, ammo, and armor rules to cleave to a more simulationist perspective.

but for SR3 they need to be converted to SR5
@squirreldude
a few Days ago I've been reminded to two american expressions: Can of Worms and Barrel of Monkeys.
Are You ready to open these ?
If you want to change the Damage by Caliber you should consequently also change the Damage by Range and also by Barrel length. that means you need three colums per Caliber
be ready to write long lists  and you should also be ready for a lot of discussions with your fellow Players.....

He who dances on a close Lid
Medicineman

[Reaver]

And, where do you draw the line?

If you look at today's firearms, .357 .45 .44 10mm are all considered to be "heavy" handgun rounds, so do you wan to divide the field up that far?

You mentioned machine pistols, well, the most common round for the MP is the 7.65mm or the .380, and of course 9mm.

Then you get into sniper rifles and assault rifles and oh my! What a mess....


Leave as is and be happy, it could be much, much worse!

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Bullet caliber, bullet weight, powder charge weight, barrel length ... it'd be a mess.  And, of course, you couldn't just swap ammo from one to the other. 

[Sendaz]

And that is assuming you don't offer different ammo loads for the same calibre.

Take a simple .22 for example.

The bolt action can handle both short and long rifle round.

But the long round semi-auto rifle can have issues with misfeeding shorts if you want to be using it in semi mode.

Tubular mags work fine, other clips depends a bit as I have seen some work fine while others jam like mad.

[Medicineman]

Barrel of Monkeys
Can of Worms
Drum of Calibre
is it all the same ?

with a round Dance
Medicineman

[SquirrelDude]

To handle the most common objections to the idea: 

"What about barrel length and ammunition weight." Whatever. I don't feel any great need to address those things because I can more easily compartmentalize barrel length as being related to accuracy and weapon range groups. As for ammunition weight, I'm fine with that being rapped up in basic ammunition DV. I don't see this as an all or nothing situation.

"What about Sniper Rifles." I actually don't mind the idea that sniper rifles would all take custom ammunition. It kind of makes sense for such precision weapons, really. The bigger issue is actually machine guns, which are all over the place in DV and AP values.

"Ammunition from pistols wouldn't work in SMGs.": Yes they do. You can take your .45 ACP ammunition right out of your Colt 1911, put it straight into a UMP .45, and the UMP will fire it fine.

Unless Ares decided to put RFID tags in every single bullet they produce, and an RFID tag reader in every gun they manufacture, their guns will fire any brand of ammunition you put into them. I wouldn't necessarily put that past a megacorp, but that seems like a waste of energy on their part. It would be easier for them to make it so that all their small arms used the same calibers of ammunition.

And, where do you draw the line?

If you look at today's firearms, .357 .45 .44 10mm are all considered to be "heavy" handgun rounds, so do you wan to divide the field up that far?

You mentioned machine pistols, well, the most common round for the MP is the 7.65mm or the .380, and of course 9mm.

Then you get into sniper rifles and assault rifles and oh my! What a mess....

Leave as is and be happy, it could be much, much worse!

Fortunately, as they are my biggest buggaboo, holdouts through SMGs are the easiest weapons to work with. Every weapon (heavy pistols are the one issue), has a base DV, once you take flechette ammunition into account from 6 to 9. Heavy pistols are the one exception, as they all have a -1 AP.

If not for that extra -1 AP every heavy pistol gets, you could easily wrap up every gun from Hold Out through SMG with 4 calibers, but I don't know if I want there to be 3 calibers (maybe .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and .357) to be specific for heavy pistols. The solution to that problem could be just giving some SMGs some AP. At least that way the heavier caliber pistol rounds would be carried across platforms.

[Herr Brackhaus]

I don't personally see the worth in this, but that being said I think machine guns could be boiled down to a mere three calibers; 5.56mm NATO (.223), 7.62mm NATO (.308), and 12.7mm NATO (.50).

Consider this; machine guns are classed from light to heavy with damage value ranges from 9 to 12. Anything on the lower end of the scale is likely to be firing 5.56mm rounds, while anything on the upper end is likely a much heavier caliber like 12.7mm. I'd simply make any weapon with a DV of 9 fire 5.56mm, any weapon with a DV of 10 fire 7.62MM, and any weapon with a DV of 11 or 12 fire 12.7mm.

If you wanted more granularity, you could always add a fourth caliber for the DV 11 weapons; 8.58mm (.338) is typically a sniper rifle round in modern times, but I could see 2075 corporations using it for their heavier weapons. This could also be used to address assault rifles with DVs of 11, resulting in assault rifles firing the same calibers as machine guns up to, but not including, 12.7mm rounds.

You'd end up with the following calibers and weapons in the AR and MG categories.

5.56mm
AR: Colt M23, HK XM30, Nitama Optimum II
MG: GE Vindicator, Ingram Valiant, SA Nemesis

7.62mm
AR: AK-97, AK-98, FN HAR
MG: Stoner-Ares M202, Ultamax MMG

8.58mm
AR: Ares Alpha, Yamaha Raiden
MG: FN MAG-5, Ultamax HMG-2

12.7mm
MG: RPK HMG, Ruhrmetall SF-20

To my mind, though, all you're doing with this exercise is breaking the weapon groups up by caliber instead of type. If you really care about the simulationist aspect of things that much I say go for it. Not my cup of tea, but can definitely be done. I'd probably pick anywhere from 8 to 12 calibers and assign one of them to each weapon based on DV and category more than anything just to keep things manageable, though.

[Medicineman]

on of the biggest Problem:
 which weapon is which Calibre ?
 what ammo does an Ares Predator I III or V use ?
 what is the Calibre of a Colt Manhunter or an Ares Alpha Combatgun ?
 
and what is the damage code of explosive Ammo from a .22 Bullet compared to explosive Ammo from 12.7mm ?
(just one of many examples) You can't just assume its the same +1DV /-1 AP

with an explosive Dance
Medicineman

[SquirrelDude]

Cut to save space

I like the suggestions for the machine guns and ARs. I'll keep them in mind. As I said before, the biggest issue is AP, but if I'm changing the way damage works, I don't see why I couldn't also change AP values.

To my mind, though, all you're doing with this exercise is breaking the weapon groups up by caliber instead of type. If you really care about the simulationist aspect of things that much I say go for it. Not my cup of tea, but can definitely be done. I'd probably pick anywhere from 8 to 12 calibers and assign one of them to each weapon based on DV and category more than anything just to keep things manageable, though.

That was the basic idea. Using Pistols through SMGs as an example. I think I would get rid of 8p +0AP weapons, and replace them with either 7P -1AP or  8P -1AP. All listed ammunition calibers should probably have "equivalent" written behind them. Weapons with an asterisk next to them are weapons I have moved from the 8p +0AP group to a different group.

6p : 9x19mm
Hold Outs Streetline Special, Fichetti Tiffani Needler, Tiffani Self-Defender
Light Pistols Ares Light Fire 75, Ares Light Fire 70, Beretta 201T, Nitama Sporter, Shiawase Armaments Puzzler, Taurus Omni-6
Machine Pistols Cesska Black Scorpion, PPSK-4, Ultimax 70

7p : .38 special
Hold Outs Walter Palm Pistols
Light Pistols Colt America L36, Fichetti Executive Action, Fichetti Security
Machine Pistols Ares Crusader II, Onotari Arms Equalizer, Steyr TMP
SMGs Ares Executioner, Colt Cobra TZ-120, HK-227, UZI IV

7p -1AP: .40 Auto
Light Pistols Taurus Omni-6
Heavy Pistols Ares Viper Silvergun, Cavalier Deputy, Colt Government 2066, Onotari Arms Violator, Remington Roomsweeper
SMG Ingram Smartgun X*, SCK Model 100*

8p -1AP: .45 ACP
Heavy Pistols Ares Predator, Browning Ultra-Power, PSK-3 Collapsible Heavy PIstol, Savalette Guardian
SMG FN P93 Praetor*, HK Urban Combat*

9p -2AP: .357 Magnum
Heavy Pistols Ruger Superwarhawk

[Herr Brackhaus]

Not bad, seems appropriate to me. With the 3 or 4 additional calibers from ARs and MGs, that brings the total to 8 or 9, most of which could likely be used for sniper rifles as well. 7.62mm and up certainly are hunting/sniper rifle calibers, though it would mess up the DV usage.

That just leaves shotguns, really.