[MijRai]

on of the biggest Problem:
 which weapon is which Calibre ?
 what ammo does an Ares Predator I III or V use ?
 what is the Calibre of a Colt Manhunter or an Ares Alpha Combatgun ?
 
and what is the damage code of explosive Ammo from a .22 Bullet compared to explosive Ammo from 12.7mm ?
(just one of many examples) You can't just assume its the same +1DV /-1 AP

with an explosive Dance
Medicineman

As far as what caliber it is, that's easy enough; you pick when you purchase, and note it with the other weapon values/modifications on the gun.  A lot of pistols nowadays have multiple models or variants that fire different caliber ammunition.  Glock, for example, has a lot of pistols that are mostly the same; some adjustments to the feed, chamber and barrel.  It's really the only difference in a number of cases.  The Glock I have has two variants, a 9x19 Parabellum and a .40 S&W.  I've seen upper mods for AR-15s/M-16s to switch that rifle to anything from 7.62x39 to .22, and the AR-10 is an AR platform firing 7.62x51. 

The one thing I'd do with the current chart is use .32 or .25 caliber for Holdouts, for the most part, and maybe lose the .38 Special. 

Also, this is the picky-asshole part of me, but your .45 ACP doesn't have the best penetration qualities.  It's a heavy round with a lower muzzle velocity, which leads to good stopping power but not so much on the penetration aspect; at the same time 9x19 is too light.  .40 S&W generally has the best qualities to have an AP quality.  Maybe throw in some other rounds, something like the 5.7x28, which is growing in popularity recently. 

[Spooky]

The problem I see with doing this is that you can easily keep expanding the caliber list until you have a sheet that is so long it becomes difficult to compare items effectively. If you really want that, go for it, but I will stick with the existing tables.

[SquirrelDude]

on of the biggest Problem:
 which weapon is which Calibre ?
 what ammo does an Ares Predator I III or V use ?
 what is the Calibre of a Colt Manhunter or an Ares Alpha Combatgun ?
 
and what is the damage code of explosive Ammo from a .22 Bullet compared to explosive Ammo from 12.7mm ?
(just one of many examples) You can't just assume its the same +1DV /-1 AP

with an explosive Dance
Medicineman

The one thing I'd do with the current chart is use .32 or .25 caliber for Holdouts, for the most part, and maybe lose the .38 Special.

Also, this is the picky-asshole part of me, but your .45 ACP doesn't have the best penetration qualities.  It's a heavy round with a lower muzzle velocity, which leads to good stopping power but not so much on the penetration aspect; at the same time 9x19 is too light.  .40 S&W generally has the best qualities to have an AP quality.  Maybe throw in some other rounds, something like the 5.7x28, which is growing in popularity recently.

Yeah, .38 special is something of an outdated round, but I'm not as up to date on modern small arms ammo calibers as I would like to be. Don't worry about being picky with the .45 ACP having AP. In many cases, the lack of penetration is actually a selling point for the round. I do want to keep the 9x19mm as an option, if only because it's the standard sidearm ammo for so many countries in the world and for so many target shooters.

I was more or less just going small diameter to larger diameter (.357 magnum notwithstanding) as a starting point and to illustrate that pistols, MPs, and SMGs could actually be pretty easily shifted to such a framework.

[mjack]

Calibers:

- Pistol Light    (PL): DV  6P, AP  0
- Pistol Medium   (PM): DV  7P, AP  0
- Pistol Heavy    (PH): DV  8P, AP -1

- Rifle Light     (RL): DV  9P, AP -2
- Rifle Medium    (RM): DV 11P, AP -2
- Rifle Heavy     (RH): DV 13P, AP -4

- Shotshell       (SS): DV 12P, AP -1

- Cannon Shell    (CS): DV 16P, AP -6

- Special Purpose (SP): Varies

Rules:

• For every caliber allow firearms to have a variation of DV +1/-1 and/or AP +1/-1.
• For longer barrels increase range and DV +1 (e.g. SMGs). For shorter barrels decrease range and DV -1 (e.g. Carbines).
• Magnum cartridges increase DV +1 and AP -1 and require a firearm designed to use them (e.g. Ruger Super Warhawk or Remington 950). This is not an additional caliber but ammunition type stacking with other types (e.g. Magnum HP: DV +2, AP +1). Costs and Availability of original ammunition are modified: Costs x2, Availability +4.
• All ranged weapons with stats not covered by the rules listed above require Special Purpose cartridges and thus individual ammunition per gun.

Annotations:

• Swapping ammunition between firearms using the same caliber becomes possible.
• Firearms in SR have 13 different calibers plus special ammunition (Tasers, Dart Guns, etc.). This suggestion lists only 8 plus Special Purpose balancing the slight increase of micromanagement.
• The generic naming of the particular calibers could be replaced by something more interesting matching the SR Universe (e.g. 9.3mm Ares PC).

[SquirrelDude]

@mjack: That's very interesting. I'll have to consider it some more.

In the meantime, here is my adjusted attempt at adding calibers to everything from pistols to Sniper Rifles using Herr Brackus and MijRai's suggestions. Shotguns are still out of the loop There will be an asterisk next to weapons that have changed DV and AP values.

6p : 9x19
Hold Outs Fichetti Tiffani Needler, Fichettie Tiffani Self-Defender, Streetline Special
Light Pistols Ares Light Fire 70, Ares LIght Fire 75, Beretta201T, Nitama Sporter, Shiawase Armaments Puzzler, Taurus Omni-6
Machine Pistols Ceska Black Scorpion, PPSK-4 Collapsible Machine Pistol, Ultimax 70

7p : .357 Sig
Hold Outs Walther Palm Pistol
Light Pistols Colt America L36, Fichetti Executive Action, Fichettie Security 600
Machine Pistols Ares Crusader II, Steyr TMP
SMGs Ares Executioner, Colt Cobra TZ-120, HK-227, Onontar Arms Equalizer, Uzi IV

7p -1AP : 5.7x28
Light Pistols Taurus Omni-6
Heavy Pistolsj Ares Viper Silvergun, Cavalier Deputy, Colt Government 2066, Onontari Arms Violator, Remington Roomsweeper
SMGs Ingram Smartgun*, SCK Model 100*

8p -1AP : 10mm
Heavy Pistols Ares Predator V, Browning Ultra-Power, PSK-3 Collapsible Pistol, Savalette Guardian
SMGs FN P93 Praetor*, HK Urban Combat*

9p -2 AP Pistol : .44 Magnum
Heavy Pistols Ruger Super Warhawk

9p -2AP Rifle : 5.56x45 NATO
Assault Rifles Colt M23, HK XM30, Nissan Optimum
Machine Guns Ingram Valiant, SA Nemesis

10p -2AP : 6.5 Grendel
Assault Rifles AK-97, AK-98, FN HAR
Machine Guns GE Vindicator Mini-Gun*, Stoner-Ares M202*, Ultamax
Sniper Rifles Pioneer 50*

11p -2AP : 7.62x39 NATO
Assault Rifles Ares Alpha, Yamaha Raiden
Machine Guns FN MAG-5*
Sniper Rifles Ruger 100*

12p -4AP : .50 BMG
Machine Guns RPK HMG, Ruhrmetall SF-20, Ultamax HMG-2
Sniper Rifles Cavalier Arms Crocket EBR*, Onotari JP-K50*, Remington 950

13p -4AP : 12.7x104 (I admit, I actually had to make a caliber of bullet here)
Sniper Rifles Ares Desert Strike

14p -5AP : 12.7x108
Sniper Rifles Ranger Arms SM-5, Barret Model 122*

15p -4AP : 14.5x114 (This is an AA/AT round)
Sniper Rifles Terracotta Arms AM-47


Annotation:
 - 8p +0AP damage code was removed from the game.
 - Lots of LMGs and Sniper Rifles had their damage values adjusted.
 - The Ares HVAR, an Assault Rifle with 8p AP+0 damage code, would need to either be massively increased in damage or fire pistol rounds. I chose to remove it from this system because the gun is garbage.

[MijRai]

10mm?  I love me some Fallout!

[Reaver]

10mm?  I love me some Fallout!

It's a good round. Fast, good penetration and good stopping power.

Colt and several others make several handguns in !0mm.

[Tarislar]

"Ammunition from pistols wouldn't work in SMGs.": Yes they do. You can take your .45 ACP ammunition right out of your Colt 1911, put it straight into a UMP .45, and the UMP will fire it fine. 

I'm curious.  What is it that your hoping to accomplish here?
What sort of game mechanic is it that your hoping to change.
Are you trying to have 3 different pistols, along with an MP & SMG on you that all fire the same ammo?
Given most of them use clips, I'm not sure what sort of space savings your getting.
Cost is already the same. 

Frankly, as a player,  I'm glad that someones SMG no matter the brand, has ammo that all works for me.  That way even if I'm not interested in salvaging guns & having to change over ownership, I can always just take some spare clips off the bodies & use that ammo in my own clips later.

If not for that extra -1 AP every heavy pistol gets, you could easily wrap up every gun from Hold Out through SMG with 4 calibers, but I don't know if I want there to be 3 calibers (maybe .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and .357) to be specific for heavy pistols. The solution to that problem could be just giving some SMGs some AP. At least that way the heavier caliber pistol rounds would be carried across platforms.

And why would there be only 4 calibers?
I mean right now just off really common rounds, I can think of a lot more then that to fill that many weapon groups.
.22LR, .22Short, .25ACP, .380Auto, .38Special, 9MM, 10MM, .40SW, .45ACP, .45Long Colt, .44Magnum, .357 Magnum.
And that isn't even touching what I'd call "exotics" like .454 Casull , .41 Magnum, 9mm Luger, .50AE.  Etc etc.

But realistically I think that -1AP is there to represent the fact that you see more Handguns loaded in Magnum calibers than you ever would SMG/MP.

I don't personally see the worth in this, but that being said I think machine guns could be boiled down to a mere three calibers; 5.56mm NATO (.223), 7.62mm NATO (.308), and 12.7mm NATO (.50).

Personally I'm not a fan of .50BMG being anywhere on the MG list as that minor DV boost isn't at all accurate compared to what a .50 does v/s a 5.56 or 7.62.  It should be reserved for DV's in the 14+ range IMHO.
But, that nitpick aside, if you needed a caliber for DV11, I'd go old school 30-06 BAR just for the MG list, but really, I'd do something like below.



For the sake of a complete list,  I thought I'd see what I could come up with.
6DV - 22LR
7DV - .380
8DV - 9MM
9DV - .45ACP  or 5.56MM  or .410-Gauge    (Depending on frame)
10DV - 6.8MM or 20-Gauge
11DV - 7.62*39 or 16-Gauge
12DV - 7.62*51 or 12-Gauge
13DV - .30.06 or 10-Gauge
14DV - .50BMG

Not that I call this list a good one, over all, I feel the DV's are really too limited, but in the end, its a game so I don't care.
But if I had to label a DV, I'd go with the above as a good starting point.

[SquirrelDude]

Suggesting names for the calibers. Honestly, the calibers probably wouldn't change that much, though the materials they're made of and the quality of gunpowder might have.

Pistols/SMGs:

Current	| Fluff	|Damage	|Weapons
9mm	| 9mm	| 6p	| Fichetti Tiffani Needler, Streetline Special, Tiffani Self-Defender, Ares-Light Fire 75, Ares Light Fire 70, Beretta 210T, Nitama Sporter, Shiawase Armaments Puzzler, Taurus Omni-6, Ceska Black Scorpion, PPSK-4 Collapsible Machine Pistol, Ultimax 70
.357 Sig	| .360 S&K	| 7p	| Walter Palm Pistol, Colt America L36, Fichetti Executive Action, Fichetti Security 600, Ares Crusader II, Steyer TMP, Ares Executioner, Colt Cobra TZ-120, HK-227, Onotari Arms Equalizer, UZ IV
FN 5.7x28	| FN 5.7x30	| 7p -1AP	| Taurus Omni-6, Ares Viper Silvergun, Cavalier Deputy, Colt Government 2066, Onontari Arms Violator, Remington Roomsweeper, Ingram Smartgun X*, SCK Model 100*
10mm	| 10.5mm	| 8p -1AP	| Ares Predator V, Browning Ultra-Power, PSK-3 Collapsible Pistol, Savalette Guardian, FN P93 Praetor*, HK Urban Combat*
.44 Magnum	| .44 Super Magnum	| 9p -2AP	| Ruger Super Warhawk

Rifles/MGs:

Current	|Fluff	|Damage	|Weapons
5.56x45 NATO	| 5.56x50 Corp. Court	| 9p -2AP	| Colt M23, XM30, Nissan Optimum, Ingram Valiant, SA Nemesis, Pioneer 50*
6.5 Grendel	| 6.6 Ares	| 10p -2AP	| AK-97, AK-98, FN HAR, GE Vindicator Mini-Gun*, Ultamax
.30-06	| .30-61	| 10p -3AP	| Stoner Ares M202
7.62x39	| 7.62x40 Shiawase	| 11p -2AP	| Ares Alpha, Yamaha Raiden
7.62x51 NATO	| 7.62x54 Corp. Court	| 11p -3AP	| FN MAG-5, Ruger 100
7.92x57	| 7.92x61 Ruhrmetall	| 12p -4AP	| RPK HMG, Ruhrmetall SF-20, Ultamax HMG-2*, Cavalier Arms Crocket EBR*, Onotari JP-K50*, Remington 950
.338 Lapua	| .340 Magnum	| 13p -4AP	| Ares Desert Strike
.50 BMG	| 12.7x103 Barret	| 14 -5AP	| Barret Model 122*, Ranger Arms SM-5
12.7x108	| .55 Terracotta	| 15 -4AP	| Terracotta Arms AM-47

Shotguns:

Current	|Damage	|Weapons
20 Gauge	| 10p -1AP	| Defiance T-250
16 Gauge	| 11p -1AP	| PJSS Model 55, Remington 990
12 Gauge	| 12p -1AP	| Franchi SPAS-24, Mossberg AM-CMDT
10 Gauge	| 13p -1AP	| Auto-Assault 16, Enfield AS-7

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

This is a similar to the post by Tarislar (but not as well laid out).

10mm is really close to the .40S&M (but may not have the pen power of the 10mm, as the caliber was the same but the 10mm has about a .7mm longer case). Also you dropped the .40 S&W, but becoming a highly popular round.
This is the can of worms people are talking about. I want the .460 S&W magnum, similar but higher velocity as the .500 S&W. Or this round, better, this round with this much powder (and this grain quality), using this kind of primer..... Oh, I can get my dad's tables he uses to hand load his 25-06 and 30-06 if we want some real fun.

Honestly, I am of the boat of to much realism is a bad thing. But if your table enjoys it, have fun.

[Tarislar]

Suggesting names for the calibers. Honestly, the calibers probably wouldn't change that much, though the materials they're made of and the quality of gunpowder might have.

10mm	Ares 11mm
.44 Magnum	.44 Super Magnum
7.62x39 NATO	7.62x40 Corp. Court

Question
1.  Are those "New" names actual SR fluff ammo from various sources?    And the "Current" names are Real World?

If that is the case, then some suggestions
2.  Ares 11MM would be .45ACP.   10MM is already a "Magnum" level load really.  and 11MM "Magnum" would be the same as .44 Magnum.
3.  7.62*39 isn't NATO.  That is the AK47 round.  NATO uses the 7.62*51

[SquirrelDude]

Question
1.  Are those "New" names actual SR fluff ammo from various sources?    And the "Current" names are Real World?

If that is the case, then some suggestions
2.  Ares 11MM would be .45ACP.   10MM is already a "Magnum" level load really.  and 11MM "Magnum" would be the same as .44 Magnum.
3.  7.62*39 isn't NATO.  That is the AK47 round.  NATO uses the 7.62*51

1. Yes
2. Derp. I was just messing around with numbers there. If it's wrong, w/e. I'm not opposed to scrapping all/redoing all of it.
3. Double derp. Got my 7.62s mixed up. The 7.62x51 would probably be useful caliber for spacing out the machine guns, though. I'll keep it in mind.

This is a similar to the post by Tarislar (but not as well laid out).

10mm is really close to the .40S&M (but may not have the pen power of the 10mm, as the caliber was the same but the 10mm has about a .7mm longer case). Also you dropped the .40 S&W, but becoming a highly popular round.

I was going to pick 10mm or .40S&W. I don't really have a preference for one or the other. 10mm just has a bit more pop to it, so I went with that.

"Ammunition from pistols wouldn't work in SMGs.": Yes they do. You can take your .45 ACP ammunition right out of your Colt 1911, put it straight into a UMP .45, and the UMP will fire it fine. 

I'm curious.  What is it that your hoping to accomplish here?
What sort of game mechanic is it that your hoping to change.
Are you trying to have 3 different pistols, along with an MP & SMG on you that all fire the same ammo?
Given most of them use clips, I'm not sure what sort of space savings your getting.
Cost is already the same. 

Frankly, as a player,  I'm glad that someones SMG no matter the brand, has ammo that all works for me.  That way even if I'm not interested in salvaging guns & having to change over ownership, I can always just take some spare clips off the bodies & use that ammo in my own clips later.

If not for that extra -1 AP every heavy pistol gets, you could easily wrap up every gun from Hold Out through SMG with 4 calibers, but I don't know if I want there to be 3 calibers (maybe .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and .357) to be specific for heavy pistols. The solution to that problem could be just giving some SMGs some AP. At least that way the heavier caliber pistol rounds would be carried across platforms.

And why would there be only 4 calibers?
I mean right now just off really common rounds, I can think of a lot more then that to fill that many weapon groups.
.22LR, .22Short, .25ACP, .380Auto, .38Special, 9MM, 10MM, .40SW, .45ACP, .45Long Colt, .44Magnum, .357 Magnum.
And that isn't even touching what I'd call "exotics" like .454 Casull , .41 Magnum, 9mm Luger, .50AE.  Etc etc.

But realistically I think that -1AP is there to represent the fact that you see more Handguns loaded in Magnum calibers than you ever would SMG/MP.

Eh, as much as I wouldn't mind having so many calibers, they'd probably all just end up getting squeezed into a DV/AP value. Similar to how the vehicle chart shows you one vehicle, and then gives you comparable/equivalent models. I don't have much opposition to doing that later, though it would definitely increase the amount of times a player couldn't find extra ammunition for their weapons of dead gangers/corp sec.

For the sake of a complete list,  I thought I'd see what I could come up with.
6DV - 22LR
7DV - .380
8DV - 9MM
9DV - .45ACP  or 5.56MM  or .410-Gauge    (Depending on frame)
10DV - 6.8MM or 20-Gauge
11DV - 7.62*39 or 16-Gauge
12DV - 7.62*51 or 12-Gauge
13DV - .30.06 or 10-Gauge
14DV - .50BMG

Not that I call this list a good one, over all, I feel the DV's are really too limited, but in the end, its a game so I don't care.
But if I had to label a DV, I'd go with the above as a good starting point.

I like the list. 6.5 vs 6.8 is basically a judgement IMO, and I could go either way without any hurt feelings. I somehow didn't come across 7.62x51, and it's definitely a a caliber I should keep in mind.

Edited my list to react to the suggestions.

[mjack]

GH3: Colt New Model Revolver - DV 5P AP 0
This damage code is where .22 LR would fit. DV 6P AP 0 may be something like .32 ACP (aka 7.65x1tmm Browing) then.

GH3: Colt Agent Special -DV 8P AP 0
Heavy Pistol Ammunition and Taser Ranges. The stats associate it pretty exactly with .45 ACP.

R&G: Ares HVAR - DV 8P AP 0
Makes a good equivalent for the HK G11 in SR. Associated caliber could be 4.73x33mm then.

There are some more damage codes in GH3 requiring attention.

[Tarislar]

GH3: Colt New Model Revolver - DV 5P AP 0
This damage code is where .22 LR would fit. DV 6P AP 0 may be something like .32 ACP (aka 7.65x1tmm Browing) then.

I didn't check GH3 so I didn't see a DV5 weapon but I agree,  DV5 would be .22LR,  DV6 would be 32ACP

[SquirrelDude]

GH3: Colt New Model Revolver - DV 5P AP 0
This damage code is where .22 LR would fit. DV 6P AP 0 may be something like .32 ACP (aka 7.65x1tmm Browing) then.

GH3: Colt Agent Special -DV 8P AP 0
Heavy Pistol Ammunition and Taser Ranges. The stats associate it pretty exactly with .45 ACP.

R&G: Ares HVAR - DV 8P AP 0
Makes a good equivalent for the HK G11 in SR. Associated caliber could be 4.73x33mm then.

There are some more damage codes in GH3 requiring attention.

8P AP 0 is the one caliber I wasn't sure there was enough ammunition for it to be worth my time implementing at first place. I shifted most of them over to other values. The HVAR is the one exception because don't feel like adding an extra caliber for a lone dumpster fire of a weapon.

I don't have GH3, but I might need to check it out.