[gradivus]

The four metasapients listed in run faster all start with MR 1 as opposed to the normal metatypes (and their variants) that start at 0. So, what happens if you choose let's say Magic Priority D which is normally Adept MR 2 or Aspected Mage MR 2. Are your MR 2 or do you add the natural MR 1 to it and so are MR 3? I tend to think it's the former but there is no explanation that I see in Run Faster to cover it.

Thoughts?

[Reaver]

Any variant that has a listed MR, has it listed because of some special ability they have.

It does not mean they are 'awakened' in the normal sense of the word. (They are not mages or adepts)

If you decide to make an awakened meta variant, your priority selection replaces the stated MR. (You do not add them)

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Metasapients and shapeshifters who select Priority A, B, C, or D for Magic have their natural Magic of 1 replaced with their new Magic attribute.

  So the former.

[DeathStrobe]

And just to add, unless you pick a awaken "quality," your max magic is 1. Meaning you can't raise it with karma, and you burn out if you lose essence.

[jim1701]

And just to add, unless you pick a awaken "quality," your max magic is 1. Meaning you can't raise it with karma, and you burn out if you lose essence.

Which makes any power they may have that is based on magic fairly useless IMHO.  Personally I believe you should be able to raise your magic stat normally both at chargen and after.  Having a magic stat greater than one does not mean you get to cast spells or use adept powers unless you paid for the ability to do so.

Besides this seems to point to the fact this is actually RAW to allow metasapients and shifters to raise their Magic:

Special attribute points can be used to increase the natural Magic attribute of a metasapient or shapeshifter, and the attribute can also be increased through Karma purchase as part of normal character advancement.

 

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Yeah, I'd say DeathStrobe is well-off on that one.  Sorry, DS.

[SpellBinder]

Easy when a line is taken out of context.  The entire paragraph from Run Faster, page 102, where that is taken from is talking about metasapients and shapeshifters who select a Priority other than E to Magic.

"Metasapients and shapeshifters who select Priority A, B, C, or D for Magic have their natural Magic of 1 replaced with their new Magic attribute. Character options that have a natural Magic attribute cannot also have a Resonance attribute and thus cannot select that option during character creation. Special attribute points can be used to increase the natural Magic attribute of a metasapient or shapeshifter, and the attribute can also be increased through Karma purchase as part of normal character advancement. If a character’s Magic is reduced to 0 through Essence loss, they cannot use any abilities tied to Magic per the rules on p. 278, SR5."

All in all, sure, I'd say that single line jim1701 pointed out will allow any metasapient or a shifter to raise their Magic by spending special attribute points and/or karma, sure.  However, the chart on page 105 states that  the maximum Magic for all of them is 1, and unless you take something like Exceptional Attribute or have a Priority other than E to Magic to increase that maximum then you're stuck.  If metasapients and shapeshifters were meant to have a Magic higher than 1 without taking an Awakened quality of some kind, then why do the charts that actually list the ranges for all of their Attributes have only a "1" for MAG (accounting for the missing EDG in shifters that skews the title bar for Attributes).

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

\You are misunderstanding the chart, I think - that, and for the four metasapients you're looking at, there simply IS no maximum listed, it's just '1', instead of - for example - the shapeshifter's general '1/5', just like all the other 'Starting/Maximum' ratings.  That doesn't mean that they can't have anything higher; that indicates that they always start out with a magic of 1.  Yes, it's incompletely done, but no, it doesn't mean what you think it means.  Sorry.

[SpellBinder]

So then, what you're saying is that since there is no range or maximum listed, metasapients have no maximum Magic whatsoever?  That even without being an Adept or a Magician, a pixie can, for example, as a Priority A metatype choice start with a Magic of 7 and increase its Magic as high as karma allows and without Initiation?  And I guess you're also saying that shapeshifters don't have Edge at all since it's not even labeled on their Attribute Table (sucks to be them, luckless bastards); guess that +#d6 is supposed to be meaningless after all.

Otherwise, yes, I wholly agree with you that it was ineptly done.  At least Runner's Companion was clearer, and in more ways than one.

[ScytheKnight]

So then, what you're saying is that since there is no range or maximum listed, metasapients have no maximum Magic whatsoever?  That even without being an Adept or a Magician, a pixie can, for example, as a Priority A metatype choice start with a Magic of 7 and increase its Magic as high as karma allows and without Initiation?  And I guess you're also saying that shapeshifters don't have Edge at all since it's not even labeled on their Attribute Table (sucks to be them, luckless bastards); guess that +#d6 is supposed to be meaningless after all.

Otherwise, yes, I wholly agree with you that it was ineptly done.  At least Runner's Companion was clearer, and in more ways than one.

OK, two very sensible things to counteract the straw man army.

Metasapiants are just like Metahumans, their Magic is limited by their Essence which since it's never mentioned being higher or lower is 6. Gee, wow isn't THAT simple?

Also when discussing how to create a Shapeshifter it mentions that all Shapeshifters have an Edge score of 1/4.

[SpellBinder]

Metasapiants are just like Metahumans, their Magic is limited by their Essence which since it's never mentioned being higher or lower is 6. Gee, wow isn't THAT simple?

Except that the Exceptional Attribute quality can be applied to any Attribute, including MAG/RES.  Means that Magic is not explicitly tied to Essence and/or Initiation alone.

And even if metasapients and shapeshifters are supposed to have a range for Magic, why does that "Metasapients and shapeshifters who select Priority A, B, C, or D for Magic have their natural Magic of 1 replaced with their new Magic attribute." line even exist?  What exactly is being replaced?  If Magic can be increased without having a magic quality, then is Magic supposed to be reset back to 1 if one happens to actually awaken as a full blown magician later?  If that single sentence wasn't even in the book on page 102, and MAG was not detailed on the following charts on page 105, I'd wager that there'd be a whole lot less confusion about this particular Attribute in this case.  Certainly seems simpler for the Infected later on, even if that bit is still a little messy.

Also when discussing how to create a Shapeshifter it mentions that all Shapeshifters have an Edge score of 1/4.

Not if you go by the chart on page 105.  Even if you account for the missing EDG column label most of the shifters actually have an Edge range of 1 to 5; only the two big cats have a 1 to 4.  Nice contradiction going on there in the book.  Really lends credibility to the whole deal. *sarcasm*

[ScytheKnight]

Alright...

Yes, there are qualities to raise it above the normal maximum, but that doesn't change how the normal maximum works, so don't really see how that invalidates anything.

All shapeshifters have an Edge attribute range of 1 to 4.

Clear enough for you? I mean seems pretty conclusive to me rather than going off assumptions that there's nothing firm to go on.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Spellbinder, you're being just as ludicrous as you're suggesting that I am - you're demanding that everything must be perfect, that the book contains no errors, at least in that portion.  It's self-evident that there are errors; one should assume, as a baseline, that metasapients have stat ranges in Magic and Edge equivalent to the general metahuman baseline, i.e. 1/6.  Or at least, that's what the rest of us are assuming; you can assume what you wish.

[jim1701]

The line I quoted referred to the metasapient's natural magic attribute.  As you so ably pointed out their natural magic attribute is replaced if they become awakened so the terminology would seem to indicate it is for those non-Awakened with a magic attribute.  I would also point out that in 4th edition also allows non-awakened metasapients and shifters to raise their magic as well (pp 84, 87 of Runner's Companion) so this is not a new concept.

[DigitalZombie]

Well, none of the races in the core book has their magic rating listed at all on page 66. But we all know a human (A) cant bump all his special attribute points into the magic stat, awakened or not.
Im with the others here. Meta sapients start at 1, which will be replaced by the new magic rating from the magic or resonance column.  Or alternatively they could just use their karma/special attribute points on raising their magic attribute.