[NovaHot1]

Power Foci effectively raise your magic rating by their Force. So if I'm a Magic 6 Shaman with a Force 3 Power Focus, does that mean I can cast Force 9 spells without overcasting? As in if I get 8 or 9 hits, it's still stun drain? I'm not clear on that.

[firebug]

Power foci don't raise your MAG by their Force.  They add their Force as a dice pool bonus to any roll including MAG.  That makes them like two dozen foci in one, but they don't just boost your MAG in any way.

So, it does not allow you to overcast more or take Stun from spells that would normally be drain, nor does it allow you to summon higher force spirits, etc etc.  It's just a (very useful and varied) dice pool bonus.

[NovaHot1]

Pg 319 "Power foci live up to their name. They are very powerful foci that temporarily increase your effective Magic rating.. "

Pg 281 "Step 3: Choose Spell Force: You must declare the Force at which to cast the spell. The Force acts as a limit on the spell. Higher Force spells are more powerful but cause more drain. You can cast a spell at a Force of up to twice your Magic rating. If the number of hits (not net hits) you get after applying the limit exceeds your Magic rating, the spell's Drain is Physical instead of Stun damage.


Found the part I missed. :/ I guess it does count in what you can cast without taking Physical damage.

[Top Dog]

It does not, it only counts for dice pools. The "effective Magic rating" is very poor phrasing, but the rest of the paragraph clarifies: it (only) increases the dicepool for Magic-related tests.

Well, "only". It's still, by far, the most cost-effective focus for almost any magician.

In unrelated news, my Mystic Adept should get Attribute Boost; that's a Magic test as well.

[NovaHot1]

Poor phrasing indeed. It doesn't say "only" but I agree it can be inferred by the sentence "That means they add to your (snip) dice pools, along with any other test where Magic is involved."

Problem is, I have this idea for a burned out magician who went the cyber to make up for the loss of his "edge" (not to be confused with EDGE) route and he would use a power focus to help him reclaim some of his old power. Doesn't work if a Force 4 spell is his limit though, ha.

[Kincaid]

He could use reagents to get around the limit issue, which would also fit into the "he can't do it on his own" theme that the power focus establishes.

[NovaHot1]

Hm. Kincaid, you might just be a genius. He could cast that Force 10 Fireball when he really has to...and then just pray he's up to the task of soaking physical drain for pretty much most of his spells.

[Top Dog]

You only have Magic 2? Yeah, that's going to be a pain... But then, a mage with Magic 2 is supposed to be ineffective.

If you could rebalance it so you have, say, Magic 4, you'll have a limit of 8, which is plenty. The power focus will still help you a lot. Drain being Physical is a pain, of course, but some of your cyber is probably spend mitigating that, and there's Fetishes and Centering; the drain value is the same, after all.

Hm. Kincaid, you might just be a genius. He could cast that Force 10 Fireball when he really has to...and then just pray he's up to the task of soaking physical drain for pretty much most of his spells.

Actually, that you can't do. Reagents set the dice pool limit, not the Force. Your Force is still limited to 2xMagic; you could at most cast the Fireball at F4 if you have Magic 2.

What the reagents allow you to do is to then ignore the Force as a limit on the dice pool. So if you roll 8 successes, you can keep them all, instead of the 4 you'd normally be limited by. It still counts as Force 4 for all other effects, though; Fireball specifically is bad for this since it uses Force as base damage.

The reagent trick works well with a lot of spells; Increased Initiative, most Illusion spells, mental manipulation, direct combat... everything that uses Net Hits as it's main basis for the effect. It doesn't work well for Indirect Combat, Mental Damage, or other spells that mainly use Force.

Still, reagents work well as part of the solution; you just have to be careful about which spells to pick. Plus, Force, not successes, is what determines drain; if you cast all your spells at a low Force and then use reagents to increase it, it matters less that your drain is Physical (since you're likely to ignore all of it).

[Kincaid]

Hm. Kincaid, you might just be a genius. He could cast that Force 10 Fireball when he really has to...and then just pray he's up to the task of soaking physical drain for pretty much most of his spells.

Restricted Gear (Trauma Damper) or Damage Compensators, since you're already going chrome.  And obviously, the classic non-force dependent spells that people already use reagents on to minimize drain.

Edit: I was thinking along the lines of hit-counting spells like Armor, not indirect combat spells like Fireball that key off of force.  Probably your best bet would to have your firepower be mundane and your utility be magic.

[NovaHot1]

Hm. Good point. Manabolt, being a direct spell, is a much better example. Cast it at Force 1 and use 7 or 8 drams of reagents and the target is still gonna have a real bad day if the roll gets a lot of hits.

Edit: Oh my sweet baby Jesus. That's still only 2 drain, if done that way. And with a spellcasting focus (a wand, for instance), you still get the extra dice, but it's so much cheaper. The concept still works. Kincaid, the GM at my next con game of Shadowrun just sensed a disturbance in the Force, thanks to you.

[Tarislar]

Honestly unless your pool is 20ish dice then using Reagents on Direct Single spells isn't that great an idea.

You can cast up to Force-5 & still be at Drain-2 so unless you are regularly able to make 5+ hits its just not that great an option.

Higher Drain, non AE spells are going to be best use of Reagents in their "typical" use of cast for extra hits.
Combat Sense, Mind Probe, & Increase Reflexes are some of the most common I see.

Then there is the Non-Typical use, which is to lower the limit on something that is massively overcast.
Magic-7, Force-14, Fireball w/ 7 Reagents means you max out at Stun Damage while still hitting for 18 DV.
Very useful when you have some extra edge to reroll for the full 7 hits if you only get 3-4 on the first roll.

[NovaHot1]

Honestly unless your pool is 20ish dice then using Reagents on Direct Single spells isn't that great an idea.

You can cast up to Force-5 & still be at Drain-2 so unless you are regularly able to make 5+ hits its just not that great an option.

Higher Drain, non AE spells are going to be best use of Reagents in their "typical" use of cast for extra hits.
Combat Sense, Mind Probe, & Increase Reflexes are some of the most common I see.

Then there is the Non-Typical use, which is to lower the limit on something that is massively overcast.
Magic-7, Force-14, Fireball w/ 7 Reagents means you max out at Stun Damage while still hitting for 18 DV.
Very useful when you have some extra edge to reroll for the full 7 hits if you only get 3-4 on the first roll.

Not always. See the above concept of the burned out Mage that has a low magic score. He casts a Force 1 Manabolt and uses a bunch of reagents to raise the limit so he can still do damage on par with a full powered Mage because he also has a combat spell focus to make up for the low magic stat.  Yes, it's extremely expensive and yes it is not an efficient use of resources, but I have it for the role playing flavor of the character. It's not always about numbers. Yes, I'm looking at the rules to see how I can still play a character concept that's a little unusual, but I don't care for statistics and that sort of thing.

[Tarislar]

I was going off your concept.

Magic-2
Skill-6
Specialization+2  (Not guaranteed to be the spell you are casting every time)
Power Focus-3

Total dice = 13
Average Hits = 4

Mana Bolt Force-1 w/ 7 Reagents = 2 Drain Stun & 4 Hits.  (Cost is $140)
Mana Bolt Force-4 no Reagents = 2 Drain Physical & 4 Hits.

So you have the shift from Stun to Physical, but as I said, its 2 Drain either way so your likely to resist it.
And the 7 Reagents is only going to come into play when your scoring 5+ Hits. 
Which isn't going to be all the time, or even often.
And the casting cost you $140.

Not saying you can't do it.  Just saying the example isn't the best & that reagents while useful, are not the end all be all for MOST spells.
A few, yes, but for most its not much difference.

For starters your going to need a REALLY big focus to make it worth it because as I said, you need a really large dice pool to get to the point where your average hits is regularly going over a force level that you can cast frequently.

[Top Dog]

Also, remember a Combat spell focus doesn't stack with a Power focus; you only use the higher of the two (so only get the Power one).

Mana Bolt Force-1 w/ 7 Reagents = 2 Drain Stun & 4 Hits.  (Cost is $140)
Mana Bolt Force-4 no Reagents = 2 Drain Physical & 4 Hits.

Stun vs Physical depends on hits in SR5. It's Physical if you get more hits then your magic (after the limit). So both would be Physical.

Otherwise, good analysis. The 140 nuyen per cast is going to add up quick. It's a good option, but Powerbolt isn't the best candidate.

If you go that way, you should beeline for your first initiation and Magic 3. Getting your cap to F6 is going to be a big deal.

[NovaHot1]

You are both very correct. I was looking at the costs and since he has low magic and it would be more utility with his firepower coming in courtesy of Ares (tm), I would only get a combat spell focus because it's thousands of nuyen cheaper and the availability lets you get it at Force 4 at char gen as opposed to Force 3 for the power focus.

140¥ per Manabolt in that manner is pretty steep. I like that breakdown.