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Best way to make this character?

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DarkSpade

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« Reply #15 on: <05-11-15/1211:10> »
I'll give a better reply later when I'm not using a phone, but for now I just want to say thanks for all the feed back. You guys have given me a lot to think about!   ;D

JmOz01

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« Reply #16 on: <05-11-15/1225:38> »
Same on phone

To answer why unarmed. ..shark and arm

Had a couple revisions in mind.  Will post tonight

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #17 on: <05-11-15/1320:59> »
Alchemy has truly punishing mechanics that make it inferior to Spellcasting in every way. Not to mention you need to buy the spells separately. So if you have Heal as a spell you can't just make an alchemical preparation t of it. You have to buy and learn it as a preparation too.

That's pretty bad. The rules, which basically just serve to limit the power and duration of anything you make to a drastic degree, generally makes it terribly useless
Playability > verisimilitude.

Marcus

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« Reply #18 on: <05-11-15/1339:53> »
How in terms of numbers how much is signficant? It would be very easy to go with something like lost an arm. In terms of visual impact it will come across as signficant. In terms of system it's a totally doable loss. It's not as nice as just puttinh in some headware, but unlike headware it's visable and makes a good story. It can also be systematically efficent allowing you to dump physicals.
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Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #19 on: <05-11-15/1430:08> »
The big issue with a cyberarm and dumped physicals is its not going to help your Physical Limit much meaning a very low cap for important dice pools like defense tests. And it won't help with movement either.

Of course that's what Full Defense is for but you need to reliably hit 20+ initiative for that to be worthwhile. Or sustain Combat Sense, which is great but causes its own resource management and aura issues, even playing the spell Limit-set game with reagents. And even that just boosts your defense dice pool and does nothing for a low physical Limit.
Playability > verisimilitude.

zarzak

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« Reply #20 on: <05-11-15/1452:41> »
The big issue with a cyberarm and dumped physicals is its not going to help your Physical Limit much meaning a very low cap for important dice pools like defense tests. And it won't help with movement either.

Of course that's what Full Defense is for but you need to reliably hit 20+ initiative for that to be worthwhile. Or sustain Combat Sense, which is great but causes its own resource management and aura issues, even playing the spell Limit-set game with reagents. And even that just boosts your defense dice pool and does nothing for a low physical Limit.

If they go mystic adept as the 'base' they can grab combat sense using powerpoint. :)

Kincaid

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« Reply #21 on: <05-11-15/1459:36> »
If the magic aspect of this character remains optimized, even in its reduced state, what motivation does the corp have for firing him?
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Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #22 on: <05-11-15/1705:07> »
If they go mystic adept as the 'base' they can grab combat sense using powerpoint. :)
1. That still does not help with the Limit to the defense tests. You can have as big a dice pool as you want, with a low Limit, you're still going to get shredded.

2. At a certain point doing things like this, you just start committing limited resources to shore up a build that is slightly shoddy at the foundations. MysAd is actually a terrible idea here because if you go MysAd, you want to take PP equal to your Magic, and that takes away from your karma. It's really better to just invest in a R1 sustaining focus and play a Limit trick than expand into yet another thing you need to invest in to make good.
Playability > verisimilitude.

zarzak

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« Reply #23 on: <05-11-15/1804:16> »
2. At a certain point doing things like this, you just start committing limited resources to shore up a build that is slightly shoddy at the foundations. MysAd is actually a terrible idea here because if you go MysAd, you want to take PP equal to your Magic, and that takes away from your karma. It's really better to just invest in a R1 sustaining focus and play a Limit trick than expand into yet another thing you need to invest in to make good.

I disagree - for this build concept you wouldn't necessarily need PP equal to your magic.  I really doubt you'd be astrally projecting as a burnout mage, so you're not really losing anything by going mystic adept.

I mean, really - you only need 1 powerpoint if you think about it.  If you were going to get an R1 sustaining focus for combat sense thats 2 karma to bind it, and 4k for the focus (which converts to 2 karma).  So thats a 4-karma investment plus buying the spell.  So you're really not spending that much more for a permanent, always-on combat sense.

1 PP doesn't just get you 1 level of combat sense, you still have .5 PP for another level of combat sense, or enhanced perception (if you need it), or some attribute boosts in agility, or improved ability, or improved potential, or etc. etc.

That seems like a pretty good deal?


gradivus

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« Reply #24 on: <05-11-15/1805:36> »
Adept Ways are for adepts only. They are called Adept Ways for a reason! :P
Hint: Mystic adepts are adepts too.

I was thinking mystic adept when I wrote it and then when I started copying some of the stuff from the poster (like the base stats-you notice I just removed 1 fom LOG and added one to CHA) and I copied over Buddhist Magician and suddenly my brain turned to mush and I forgot that I was making a mystic adept but left the Way in and the augmentation bonus...in which case he'd should read MR 2 and have 2 Power points.  which leaves 6 Karma... ah well, what you get for trying to type on three hours rest, my bad.


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Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #25 on: <05-11-15/1823:29> »
I disagree - for this build concept you wouldn't necessarily need PP equal to your magic.
This is pretty much never the right idea.

I really doubt you'd be astrally projecting as a burnout mage, so you're not really losing anything by going mystic adept.
Um. Why? Now, personally I think giving up projection for PP is a no-brainer. But that doesn't interact at all with lower Essence. The use of projection is scouting, not fighting - hell, not even fighting spirits. Maybe messing with foci, but there are better things to be doing in combat time than that typically.

I mean, really - you only need 1 powerpoint if you think about it.  If you were going to get an R1 sustaining focus for combat sense thats 2 karma to bind it, and 4k for the focus (which converts to 2 karma).  So thats a 4-karma investment plus buying the spell.  So you're really not spending that much more for a permanent, always-on combat sense.
It's still not really worth it. Great you have Combat Sense 1. With the focus and some creative spellcasting, you'd likely be able to generate 3-4 hits.

I love taking Combat Sense 6, but in a lot of ways a spell can be more effective, particularly on a MAG starved build.

That seems like a pretty good deal?
Eh not really. If you want to go MysAd, the true payout is going whole hog with 6 PP and obviating the need for multiple spells, or picking up tricks that don't translate into spells. And that requires a big karma investment into the PP. For 1 PP, I think projection is more worthwhile. At least you can do an astral scouting.
Playability > verisimilitude.

DarkSpade

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« Reply #26 on: <05-11-15/2046:04> »
Okay, real keyboard now.   8)

Something I should have mentioned in my original post.  This will only be my second time playing Shadowrun outside of the video games and my first time creating a character for it.   I'm certainly going to have to reread the magic and cybernetics sections again to make sure I've got this all down. In our first campaign no player took either. 


I'm not worried about optimizing the character's magic.  As Kincaid pointed out, if he still has useful magic, there's no reason to fire him.   For his magic I'm more concerned with him having it than I am it being useful in combat at the start.  I view him being more concerned at this point with improving his combat abilities than he is with adapting to his new found magic deficiency.   If he does throw a spell it would be more of a bluff than anything else.  Maybe mana bolt at the beginning of combat to draw attention from the team's actual mage.  Of course, he'd have to intentionally miss to hide how weak the bolt really is.   He'd still try for a spell counter when needed, but otherwise magic will be an after thought in combat.   I kind of see him being a bit bitter about what happened, at least at the beginning.  As the character grows, I may start spending some karma to reacquire some of his lost magic.   I do love the idea of him still having some access to astral stuff since it could lead to some interesting uses and could even see him using it to help fake others into thinking he's the team's mage. 


For combat, I plan to give him some pistol skills but otherwise focusing in melee.   This shouldn't be too much of a stretch since as a security team member(I'm thinking former mid level rapid response team) it's likely he got some kind of physical training. I keep picturing him fighting with some kind of retractable blade hidden in each forearm as his main weapon.  I like the idea of some thug charging at him thinking he's about to geek the mage and not noticing the cyber arms until he's got a fist and a blade in his gut.


As for exactly how significant his injuries were, that will depend on how much cyberware I can get away with(and afford) in character creation and still maintain that 1 point of magic.  The more limbs replaced the better and I'd like to get the eyes replaced too.  I know the more you take can also result in penalties for some social interaction checks,  but I'm not aiming to make this guy likable.


There's some other questions I have.

 - Lorewise, I only know the basic world.  Is there any particular corporation that would work well for the character's background?

 - What are some good contact ideas?   He's rather new to shadowrunning so he probably won't have some of the standards like a fixer or arms dealer(have to rely on teammate's contacts).  What kind of contacts does a former wage slave have?

 - I know previous editions have had supplements with a lot of new cyberware.  Has 5th ed gotten anything like that yet?

And again, thank you all for the feed back.  It's good to know this idea is plausible.

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #27 on: <05-11-15/2100:28> »
Just FYI, unlike the games, you cannot actually miss with direct combat spells. They're basically a surge of mana between your aura and your target's. They can be fully resisted, that's all.

I would also say not devoting too much to Magic (that you're just going to lose) just because you really are just pouring finite resources down the drain. So start with lower Magic is my suggestion but don't try to fit in 5 Essence of ware - with the priorities involved to do this, you will be significantly less powerful than probably everyone else on your team.

Contacts...you just want something useful. A corporate headhunter who still has a soft spot for you or who thinks you got a raw deal might be a good one.

Run & Gun might have some new ware? Nothing like 4th's Augmentation is out though.

And one more piece of advice: if you want to fake people into thinking you're that mage, you damn well better be able to weather the focused fire they will throw your way.
Playability > verisimilitude.

zarzak

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« Reply #28 on: <05-11-15/2215:23> »
So, mechanically speaking:

A - Attributes; this way you can have both good drain and you can have solid physical stats
B - Nuyen; you need a lot of nuyen for cyberware.  You can get away with priority B if you use increase reflexes
C - Magic; you need at least magic C to start as a magician/mystic adept
D - Skills; This is where you're really getting hurt, but skills are "easiest" to raise ignore
E - Metatype; Gotta sacrifice something, and your edge is the sacrifice.

Attributes:
With an A in Attributes you can start with 5's in Body/Strength/Willpower/Intuition, a 6 in agility, a 2 in logic, a 3 in reaction, a 1 in charisma ... for example.  3 in Edge, of course. 

Qualities:
You want Mentor Spirit.   You could go Shark (+2 to unarmed combat), or Bear (+2 to health spells).  Your call.  Or something completely else.  I'd go with the +2 to health spells, personally - your unarmed will be high enough that it won't need the boost, but you'll be relying on Increase Reflexes for your initiative boost.  Bear also gives damage resistance, which is nice for your concept.
Agile Defender from Run 'n' Gun could be useful.
You'll also need negative qualities, as you'll need the karma for magic (15 karma gets you 2 points of magic), and skills, and possibly more nuyen.

Skills:
6 points in Unarmed and a specialization in Spurs
6 points in Automatics (or whatever gun skill you want) and a specialization.
6 points in spellcasting and a specialization in health spells.  If you also get dice from mentor spirits you'd have 12 dice for health spells with magic 2, which actually isn't too shabby.
So thats already 21 points out of your 22 available and you don't have perception, sneak, etiquette, counterspelling, assensing (if you can get it) ... you get the idea.  So that would be a big weak point.  You can remedy it a bit with karma (buy a point or two in etiquette, perception, and sneak), but even so.

Spells:
Heal, Increase Reflexes, and Increase Strength (or agility, but I'd think you'd want to bioware up your agility instead) or so I'd say are minimum requirements.  Whiskeyjack feels that you should get Combat Sense here, I'd argue its better to be a mystic adept and buy a powerpoint and do it.  You do need a source of Combat Sense, regardless.  You'd have room for 1 direct damage spell as well, given that you start with 5 spells (this is actually a little unclear ... you get 5 spells from your priority, but your max is magicx2, which would be 4 spells with magic 2.  Not sure how this works).

For your tradition, Street Grimoire has INT+WILL traditions.  Those would be best, stat-wise (INT gives you initiative, WILL gives you stun boxes, so you want those stats anyways).

Gear:
You can easily afford two fully base-statted (agility 6/strength 6) obvious cyberarms with spurs in each.  You can afford a datajack, a reflex recorder (unarmed), muscle toner (you could have a nice 8 augmented agility), solid cybereyes and solid cyberears.  You can afford a motorcycle or such, a nice gun, nice armor, and some sustaining health foci.  Of course you'll also have enough nuyen for the basics - Fake SIN/licenses/commlinks.  You'll also want some reagents for nice increase reflexes, at least.

----

RP-speaking:

Corps for your background: Honestly, I think almost any corps works here.  Low-level security goons aren't too different from corps to corps.  Pick one that you can see your character working for in the past.  I think Ares is pretty cool so I usually give my characters contacts with them, for instance.
Contact Ideas : You'll probably be dumping charisma (given that you need good physical stats and drain stats), so you might only be able to afford one.  Whiskeyjack's idea here is probably the best thing.
Supplements with Cyberware: Nothing really yet, at least.

:)

JmOz01

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« Reply #29 on: <05-11-15/2229:33> »
This is a rough draft, did not buy all his equipment etc,

I also find it interesting how close to Zarzak's ideas I was, Only big difference was swapping skills for attributes

here is what I came up with,  You will want to buy regents BTW

Unnamed Hero
METATYPE: HUMAN
B 3, A 2/4, R 4, S 2/4, W 3, L 2, I 6, C 2, ESS 4, EDG 2, M 2
Condition Monitor (P/S): 11 / 10
Armor: 2
Limits: Physical 6, Mental 5, Social 4
Physical Initiative: 10+1D6
Astral Initiative: 12+3D6
Active Skills: Alchemy 1, Assensing 6, Athletics Group 4, Close Combat Group 6, Counterspelling 6, Etiquette 1, Perception (Visual +2) 6, Pistols (Semi-Automatics +2) 6, Sneaking (Urban +2) 6, Spellcasting (Health Spells +2) 6, Summoning 6
Languages: English N
Qualities: Focused Concentration (2), Hermetic Magician, Indomitable (Physical) (1), Mentor Spirit: Bear, Perceptive Defender
Spells: Heal, Increase Charisma, Increase Reflexes, Trid Phantasm
Alchemical Preparations: Fireball
Augmentations:
. . Cyber Arm (Obvious) (Main Hand) w/ Cyberarm Slide, Cyberlimb Agility (9), Cyberlimb Strength (9), Enhanced Agility (3), Enhanced Armor +2 (2), Enhanced Strength (3), Fingertip Compartment
. . . . Spurs
. . Cybereyes (1) w/ Flare Compensation, Image Link, Smartlink
. . Muscle Augmentation (2)
. . Muscle Toner (2)
Weapons:
. . Spurs [Unarmed, Acc 6, DV 12P, AP -2]
Starting ¥: 5,000 + (1D6 × 20)¥

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