[Whiskeyjack]

The mental attribute thing is more of a roleplaying thing than it is a mechanical thing.  There are enough threads on this topic in the forums to let me know that there is a lot of variation amongst players and GMs on this topic, but (for me) roleplaying a Logic 1 character means essentially never coming up with a good idea, which would be pretty boring.

Not to derail on this subject, but while Attributes of 1 are the minimum, they are still playable. There's not a rule that  you start at 1 and have to raise it to at least a 2, even if most people do. LOG 1 certainly is not "never comes up with a good idea." IRL there are plenty of people at borderline intellectual functioning, which I posit is probably worse than LOG 1 as represented in the system, who are incredibly creative, insightful and thoughtful individuals. At the same time, the system doesn't represent IRL, but I don't think that the player of a LOG 1 character is estopped from having good ideas just because, functionally, LOG might track to IQ in some way.

This is a bit of a point where the system representing characters breaks down a bit. It's easy enough to imagine STR 1 as a 98-pound weakling or BOD 1 as someone who is largely in poor health, or AGI 1 as a complete and utter klutz or perhaps someone with essential tremor that affects their ability to aim or handle objects effectively, but it's much harder to quantify low mental attributes in a way that isn't sort of offensive.

And, as has been brought up in other threads, you can have a valid LOG 1 character who also has Hacking 6. It's not optimized, but the system certainly allows it, even if it might cause some verisimilitude confusion. Best to remember the system is not the setting in this case. You might not be able to roll well with LOG 1 but I think an ST who doesn't allow you to even present ideas IC is kind of a dick.

[Hobbes]

Mages have a lot more options to get and keep that Increase Reflexes if they do hit a background count. They can just cast it at full force instead, eating the (stun) drain and the -2 (or less) pool penalty. They can summon a high force spirit to cast it for them. Or get quickening at some point and cast it through there.

This character can't do that though - or at least, not cost-effectively - since his Magic is too low to cast it at high force, his drain pool is too low to safely absorb the Physical drain from said high force, he can't summon high force spirits needed to cast it, and quickening is relatively very expensive for this character (since he can't use it as well as a pure caster).

If the OP is looking at a 5 Magic "burn out" then, yes lots of options.  As Top Dog says, a magic 1 or 2 character is more limited.  You're taking physical drain for casting something that is essential to your combat function, so you can't be so casual about wards, background counts, ect that force repeated casting.  If you hand off the spell sustaining to a spirit or a focus you risk losing the buff to a relatively weak attack.  A Mage with magic 6 and crap initiative will still be able to slowly do what mages do.  (Utility, zot spirits, AOEIWINButtons.)  Just duck until its your turn.  A Magic 1 burn out really doesn't do those other magic things all that well.  Not saying impossible, just saying know your table. 

It's also going to be a fairly high opportunity cost to get 10 dice of drain stats.  With as many directions as this build is pulled, tossing out 5 on Willpower and Whatever isn't a casual thing.  It'll leave you with a lot of 1's and 2's to overcome. 

[Hobbes]

The mental attribute thing is more of a roleplaying thing than it is a mechanical thing.  There are enough threads on this topic in the forums to let me know that there is a lot of variation amongst players and GMs on this topic, but (for me) roleplaying a Logic 1 character means essentially never coming up with a good idea, which would be pretty boring.

Not to derail on this subject, but while Attributes of 1 are the minimum, they are still playable. There's not a rule that  you start at 1 and have to raise it to at least a 2, even if most people do. LOG 1 certainly is not "never comes up with a good idea." IRL there are plenty of people at borderline intellectual functioning, which I posit is probably worse than LOG 1 as represented in the system, who are incredibly creative, insightful and thoughtful individuals. At the same time, the system doesn't represent IRL, but I don't think that the player of a LOG 1 character is estopped from having good ideas just because, functionally, LOG might track to IQ in some way.

This is a bit of a point where the system representing characters breaks down a bit. It's easy enough to imagine STR 1 as a 98-pound weakling or BOD 1 as someone who is largely in poor health, or AGI 1 as a complete and utter klutz or perhaps someone with essential tremor that affects their ability to aim or handle objects effectively, but it's much harder to quantify low mental attributes in a way that isn't sort of offensive.

And, as has been brought up in other threads, you can have a valid LOG 1 character who also has Hacking 6. It's not optimized, but the system certainly allows it, even if it might cause some verisimilitude confusion. Best to remember the system is not the setting in this case. You might not be able to roll well with LOG 1 but I think an ST who doesn't allow you to even present ideas IC is kind of a dick.

1 Logic = 6th grade education.  Pretty easy to RP.  Certainly doesn't indicate any kind of mental handicap, there are qualities for that.  Logic is mostly book learning in Shadowrun, Academic and Technical skills.  Doesn't stop you from having good ideas, you just can't draw up the blueprints. 

For the most part Jr. High School students or older folks are good examples of 1 stats, often multiple 1 stats, and are able to get through day to day life without significant hardship.  Given how strongly Shadowrun mechanically encourages specialization tossing in "free" negative qualities for low stats is unnecessary.  You'll have low limits, movement, encumbrance, Memory, Judge intentions, Composure, initiative, Defense pool, Soak, Contacts, Knowledge skills, or whatever for the low stats.  Isn't that punishment enough? 

[zarzak]

Mages have a lot more options to get and keep that Increase Reflexes if they do hit a background count. They can just cast it at full force instead, eating the (stun) drain and the -2 (or less) pool penalty. They can summon a high force spirit to cast it for them. Or get quickening at some point and cast it through there.

This character can't do that though - or at least, not cost-effectively - since his Magic is too low to cast it at high force, his drain pool is too low to safely absorb the Physical drain from said high force, he can't summon high force spirits needed to cast it, and quickening is relatively very expensive for this character (since he can't use it as well as a pure caster).

If the OP is looking at a 5 Magic "burn out" then, yes lots of options.  As Top Dog says, a magic 1 or 2 character is more limited.  You're taking physical drain for casting something that is essential to your combat function, so you can't be so casual about wards, background counts, ect that force repeated casting.  If you hand off the spell sustaining to a spirit or a focus you risk losing the buff to a relatively weak attack.  A Mage with magic 6 and crap initiative will still be able to slowly do what mages do.  (Utility, zot spirits, AOEIWINButtons.)  Just duck until its your turn.  A Magic 1 burn out really doesn't do those other magic things all that well.  Not saying impossible, just saying know your table. 

It's also going to be a fairly high opportunity cost to get 10 dice of drain stats.  With as many directions as this build is pulled, tossing out 5 on Willpower and Whatever isn't a casual thing.  It'll leave you with a lot of 1's and 2's to overcome.

If you do attributes in priority A then you can easily get 5 in will and intuition (which are both useful to a street sam) with only taking 1's in logic and charisma (useless for you).    Then you have 10 drain dice - its also easy to get 12 dice to throw for health spells.

[Kincaid]

The mental attribute thing is more of a roleplaying thing than it is a mechanical thing.  There are enough threads on this topic in the forums to let me know that there is a lot of variation amongst players and GMs on this topic, but (for me) roleplaying a Logic 1 character means essentially never coming up with a good idea, which would be pretty boring.

Not to derail on this subject, but while Attributes of 1 are the minimum, they are still playable. There's not a rule that  you start at 1 and have to raise it to at least a 2, even if most people do. LOG 1 certainly is not "never comes up with a good idea." IRL there are plenty of people at borderline intellectual functioning, which I posit is probably worse than LOG 1 as represented in the system, who are incredibly creative, insightful and thoughtful individuals. At the same time, the system doesn't represent IRL, but I don't think that the player of a LOG 1 character is estopped from having good ideas just because, functionally, LOG might track to IQ in some way.

This is a bit of a point where the system representing characters breaks down a bit. It's easy enough to imagine STR 1 as a 98-pound weakling or BOD 1 as someone who is largely in poor health, or AGI 1 as a complete and utter klutz or perhaps someone with essential tremor that affects their ability to aim or handle objects effectively, but it's much harder to quantify low mental attributes in a way that isn't sort of offensive.

And, as has been brought up in other threads, you can have a valid LOG 1 character who also has Hacking 6. It's not optimized, but the system certainly allows it, even if it might cause some verisimilitude confusion. Best to remember the system is not the setting in this case. You might not be able to roll well with LOG 1 but I think an ST who doesn't allow you to even present ideas IC is kind of a dick.

1 Logic = 6th grade education.  Pretty easy to RP.  Certainly doesn't indicate any kind of mental handicap, there are qualities for that.  Logic is mostly book learning in Shadowrun, Academic and Technical skills.  Doesn't stop you from having good ideas, you just can't draw up the blueprints. 

For the most part Jr. High School students or older folks are good examples of 1 stats, often multiple 1 stats, and are able to get through day to day life without significant hardship.  Given how strongly Shadowrun mechanically encourages specialization tossing in "free" negative qualities for low stats is unnecessary.  You'll have low limits, movement, encumbrance, Memory, Judge intentions, Composure, initiative, Defense pool, Soak, Contacts, Knowledge skills, or whatever for the low stats.  Isn't that punishment enough? 

I'll point out that the average 6th grader is, by definition, a moron.

[Whiskeyjack]

Yeah, the point is that 5 WIL is otherwise pretty bad for a sam. All it's doing is giving you another stun box and a die or two against certain spells, which a full mage should be counterspelling anyway.

I wouldn't rush to say CHA is useless to a sam. Intimidation is CHA-based, after all.

LOG, yeah, dump it.

I'll point out that the average 6th grader is, by definition, a moron.

Though whether that is due to only being about halfway through formal education or being 11-12, immature, and pubescent hormonal is a whole separate issue.

IRL intelligence (and IQ) is based on a lot more than raw processing power or fund of knowledge and involves things like insight, deduction ability, and judgment, which aren't strictly covered (or possibly even considered) by what most people think about when they hear IQ, and which I wouldn't say are strictly covered by LOG in this game either. Imperfect simulation, etc.

There are some pretty damn smart 6th graders in the world, but you can't smart your way out of being 11-12, immature, and pubescent hormonal.

[Hobbes]

I'll point out that the average 6th grader is, by definition, a moron.

Yes, but you're looking at the whole package that is a 6th grader.  Shadowrun Logic is technical and academic skills.  You can score a 10 on the Wonderlic test and still be an NFL caliber player. 

(10 on the Wonderlic = "literate" if you're wondering)

[Hobbes]

If you do attributes in priority A then you can easily get 5 in will and intuition (which are both useful to a street sam) with only taking 1's in logic and charisma (useless for you).    Then you have 10 drain dice - its also easy to get 12 dice to throw for health spells.

Dependent on Magic tradition, and willing to go with spells to boost initiative.  But, yes if you're a Buddhist (or whatever) tradition you can get to 10 if you're willing to go with Resources B, Magic C, Skills D.  'dat Skills D is brutal for a character with as many skill wants as the OP seems to have.  Pistol, Melee, plus Magic skills.     

[Kincaid]

I'll point out that the average 6th grader is, by definition, a moron.

Yes, but you're looking at the whole package that is a 6th grader.  Shadowrun Logic is technical and academic skills.  You can score a 10 on the Wonderlic test and still be an NFL caliber player. 

(10 on the Wonderlic = "literate" if you're wondering)

There are many sixth graders and NFL players I would not trust with automatic weapons.

But like I said originally, this is something that varies tremendously by table, so it's really up to the op's GM.  Going back to the character sheet a few pages back, I'm certain that there's a better way of spending karma.  For example, if we change skills to:

Automatics 6 (+2)
Heavy Weapons 4 (+2)
Spellcasting 6 (+2)
Perception 1
Sneaking 1 (+2) - taking the Urban specialization to offset the loss in Agility

That leaves us with no Etiquette, which may or may not be a deal-breaker for session 1, but let's assume your character keeps his mouth shut and buys it with earned karma once the game begins.  I'd also recommend dropping some points from Agility and going solely with the cyberarm.

So now your 32 karma would look like
15 +2 Magic
10 2 PP
2 Sustaining Focus 1
4 qi focus 2 (Motion Sense)

Two power points could give you Improved Reflexes and Combat Sense, getting around the Background Count problem of using a focus.

[zarzak]

But like I said originally, this is something that varies tremendously by table, so it's really up to the op's GM.  Going back to the character sheet a few pages back, I'm certain that there's a better way of spending karma.  For example, if we change skills to:

Automatics 6 (+2)
Heavy Weapons 4 (+2)
Spellcasting 6 (+2)
Perception 1
Sneaking 1 (+2) - taking the Urban specialization to offset the loss in Agility

That leaves us with no Etiquette, which may or may not be a deal-breaker for session 1, but let's assume your character keeps his mouth shut and buys it with earned karma once the game begins.  I'd also recommend dropping some points from Agility and going solely with the cyberarm.

So now your 32 karma would look like
15 +2 Magic
10 2 PP
2 Sustaining Focus 1
4 qi focus 2 (Motion Sense)

Two power points could give you Improved Reflexes and Combat Sense, getting around the Background Count problem of using a focus.

I was also thinking about it ... if you drop the agile defender quality (3 karma) and 1 point in sneaking that was bought with karma (4 karma) that gives 7 more karma ... enough for the 2nd powerpoint.  So you can then get improved reflexes if you'd really like, and you're only spending 4 karma on skills.

Of course you can then play around with skills more (perhaps drop 2 points in heavy weapons as you suggest).

[Hobbes]

There are many sixth graders and NFL players I would not trust with automatic weapons.

I lol'd.  True story.

A slightly different way of doing a similar thing.  Nuyen and Karma deliberately unspent for the OP to customize.  Grenades, Foci, Reagents, More Augments, A car, Lifestyle, ect. ect.  29 Karma left over as well if you take the full -25 from negative qualities.  So patch up low stats or skills, whatever.  Mentor spirit is highly encouraged.     

Low Move for a melee character so think of the Spurs as a "finishing move", that accuracy is a bitch though.  You'll be shooting most of the way in.  IMO Automatics and Monowhips are mechanically better, but the OP said "Pistols" and Stabbing so...

Also, personally, I'd go with Fetishes on all but the Heal spell.  Cast everything at force 4ish for minimum drain.  Not sure how the OP feels about carting around 4 pairs of chicken feet.  Spell list would be shuffled around a bit depending on Mentor Spirit.  Spellcasting specialization would be an early pick up.  Bringing casting pool to 10 dice for the chosen buff spells.  Overall investment in Magic is moderate.  "C" Priority, 30 Karma, 12 Skill points, 5 Group points.  You're getting a couple moderate buffs from spells, Spirits, and counterspells. 

Nuyen left for Chargen 103,755.  So lots.
Karma Spent 21
   Magic from 0 to 1.
   Focus Concentration 4

== Priorities ==
Metatype: E - Human
Attributes: D - 14 Attributes
Special: C - Adept, Magician, or Technomancer
Skills: B - 36 Skills/5 Skill Groups
Resources: A - 450,000¥

== Attributes ==
BOD: 3
AGI: 3
REA: 5
STR: 1
CHA: 1
INT: 5
LOG: 1
WIL: 3
EDG: 3
MAG: 1

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   1.66
Initiative:                12 + 3d6
Rigger Initiative:         12 + 3d6
Astral Initiative:         10 + 2d6
Matrix AR Initiative:      12 + 3d6
Matrix Cold Initiative:    5 + DP + 3d6
Matrix Hot Initiative:     5 + DP + 4d6
Physical Damage Track:     11
Stun Damage Track:         10

== Limits ==
Physical:                  4
Mental:                    4
Social:                    3
   Mortimer of London: Argentum Coat [+1] (Must be visible)
   Mortimer of London: Berwick Suit [+1] (Must be visible)
Astral:                    4

== Active Skills ==
Counterspelling            : 5                      Pool: 6
Pistols                    : 6 [Semi-Automatics]    Pool: 7 (9)
Ritual Spellcasting        : 5                      Pool: 6
Sneaking                   : 6 [Urban]              Pool: 7 (9)
Spellcasting               : 5                      Pool: 6
Summoning                  : 6                      Pool: 7
Perception              : 2 [Visual]    Pool: 7 (9)
Unarmed Combat             : 6 [Cyber Implants]     Pool: 7 (9)
Assensing                  : 6                      Pool: 11

(Note Group Skill Sorcery 5)

== Qualities ==
Magician
Focus Concentration 4

== Spells ==
Tradition: Any Int, Resist Drain with WIL + INT 8 
Heal                       DV: F-4
Silence                    DV: F-1
Levitate                      DV:  F-2
Combat Sense   DV:  F
Increase Inherent Limits   DV: F-1

== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Bone Lacing (Aluminum)
Cybereyes Basic System Rating 2
   +Image Link
   +Smartlink
   +Thermographic Vision
   +Vision Magnification
   +Vision Enhancement Rating 1
Datajack
Obvious Full Arm (AGI 9, STR 9, Physical 10) (Right)
   +Customized Agility Rating 6
   +Customized Strength Rating 6
   +Enhanced Agility Rating 3
   +Enhanced Strength Rating 3
   +Armor Rating 3
   +Spurs
Orthoskin Rating 3
Synaptic Booster Rating 2

== Armor ==
Forearm Guards                      1
Mortimer of London: Argentum Coat   4
   +Concealability
   +Custom Fit (Stack)
Mortimer of London: Berwick Suit    9
   +Custom Fit

== Weapons ==
Savalette Guardian
   +Concealed Quick-Draw Holster
   +Gas-Vent 3 System
   +Smartgun System, Internal
   Pool: 17   Accuracy: 7   DV: 8P   AP: -1   RC: 5
Spurs
   Pool: 17   Accuracy: 4   DV: 12P   AP: -2   RC: 1

[zarzak]

Build

Hmmm ... a few thoughts on your take:

1) OP said he'd like two cyberarms with spurs.  You definitely have the nuyen; whats your essence looking like?
2) Instead of Focused Concentration 4 would it be better to bind a level 1 sustaining focus and use reagents?  I'm not sure, actually.
3) Your physical limit is pretty low.  I know you have the increase limit spell, but sustaining that and combat sense would be an issue at the moment (you need sustaining foci).
4) Ritual Spellcasting seems sort of useless for the character.  You could break that out into boosting spellcasting more, and counterspelling, and perception, and grabbing a point of etiquette
5) If you use two cyberarms would bone lacing be worth it?  You wouldn't see the unarmed damage boost with the spurs, after all.
6*) If you dropped focus concentration 4 for sustaining foci you could use the karma to boost magic to 2, and go mystic adept and grab the astral perception thingy (for assessing) and a level of combat sense and the improved physical limit boost.  That would get rid of the need to sustain combat sense, and the need to sustain the increased physical limit (unless you don't think a limit of 5 would be high enough).

[Whiskeyjack]

I think FC 4 might be better as it stands up to Background Count better and BC is a LOT more prevalent in 5th than it was in 4th.

Ritual Spellcasting for this guy would be kinda useless yeah. Watchers are cool and rituals can be too but this is better for a dedicated mage. Maybe a point to help in rituals if there's another PC that can do them but that is better bought with karma.

Low Phys Limit for a cyber spur character is bad since Unarmed attack Limit = Physical Limit. Or do you calculate the Limit per arm if you have a cyberarm? My guess is no... At any rate, 5 is pretty low Limit for your main combat shtick.

Bone Lacing is cheap soak, that alone is worth it. It also provides a different vector for P damage that isn't a blade in case that might matter on occasion. And would make your kicks P too.

Astral Perception is better as a focus IMO. In my experience you take stuff you want always on with PP and Astral Perception is more situational than, say, Improved Reflexes or Combat Sense.

Probably want to make one of the cyber spurs a weapon focus though...

[DarkSpade]

Sorry I've been silent.  Still processing everything I'm reading while also trying to cram on the rule books too.  I also recently bought Street Grimoire, but now I can't remember where I put it.  Wanted Run Faster, but they were out of the regular version.

Unfortunately, I'm also getting slammed with a lot of overtime at work which is killing my free time.   

[Hobbes]

Build

Hmmm ... a few thoughts on your take:

1) OP said he'd like two cyberarms with spurs.  You definitely have the nuyen; whats your essence looking like?
2) Instead of Focused Concentration 4 would it be better to bind a level 1 sustaining focus and use reagents?  I'm not sure, actually.
3) Your physical limit is pretty low.  I know you have the increase limit spell, but sustaining that and combat sense would be an issue at the moment (you need sustaining foci).
4) Ritual Spellcasting seems sort of useless for the character.  You could break that out into boosting spellcasting more, and counterspelling, and perception, and grabbing a point of etiquette
5) If you use two cyberarms would bone lacing be worth it?  You wouldn't see the unarmed damage boost with the spurs, after all.
6*) If you dropped focus concentration 4 for sustaining foci you could use the karma to boost magic to 2, and go mystic adept and grab the astral perception thingy (for assessing) and a level of combat sense and the improved physical limit boost.  That would get rid of the need to sustain combat sense, and the need to sustain the increased physical limit (unless you don't think a limit of 5 would be high enough).

1. Essence is tight, will rearrange to get the second arm added.  Missed that requirement, thanks. 
2. Cheaper but less robust.  Trade off, certainly a viable choice though.
3. Limits in Combat are typically the Accuracy of the weapon.  Limits come up more frequently in non-combat skill checks, so the potential is there to juggle spells as needed.  Keep Combat sense running as the default, drop and cast Increase limits when sneaking or whatever.  Drop and cast Combat Sense when it looks like shooting is about to start.  And neither buff is critical, just really nice to have.  *shrug*  Aura Twisting, shadowrun-style.
4.  Sorcery skill group, not Ritual Spellcasting as an individual skill.  It's the bonus skill for that group.  The 5 group skill points may be better off in Conjuring and spellcasting picked up individually but then I wind up without Counterspelling or Assensing or something.  And no other group skills looked as beneficial.  Still very likely there is a more optimal arrangement of skills if the OP has different ideas for what he wants. 
5.  The Bone lacing will likely go for Essence reasons to get the 2nd limb.  We'll see.
6.  Spend 20 Karma (Magic to 2, and 2 Power points), and drop 1 Essence of Augments, to drop Astral Projection, pick up Astral Perception (1 PP) and 1 PP worth of stuff.  Could be done, personally I'd go with +2 Accuracy on the spurs and +1 Physical limit.  With one more point of STR physical limit goes up as well.  Certainly an option, I'd rather juggle spells as needed.  The problem with Mystic Adept Burnouts is you need to get to 2 magic to get ahead if you want Astral Perception.  *shrug*  I think Burn-outs may be the one case where Mystic Adepts are not the clearly better option.