[Patrick Goodman]

Cheap fan-fic?

You say you respect us then insult our work. That's not respect. Not sure what it is, but it's not respect. Stop lying to us.

[MijRai]

Perhaps it'd be better if you didn't mention addictions, insults or call the published material in the books, written by freelancers 'fan-fic.'  Those are written by freelancers too, are they not?  They have the writer's names on all of them...   

State the problem without going into personal things. 

Yes, errata would be wonderful; in the current state, I would not run a 5th Ed Shadowrun game without going through the books and making a comprehensive house-rules list that would range from vehicle movement to skills to character creation to 'ware to spell Drain to all sorts of things.  I won't buy a hard-copy book until I can be sure it will be updated.  That said, Catalyst is a company.  While having them drop everything (how many product lines are they putting out again?) to fix up their previous errors would be nice, it isn't feasible.  They need to continue bringing in a flow of cash, or they risk going out of business.  And then there's no more Shadowrun for anybody, errata'd or not (at least until the rights are acquired by someone else).  All we can do is ask these previous problems be addressed, and hope somebody has been working on it, possibly with help from scanning these forums to see what people picked up on.  If we don't get our hopes, we're really limited to two things; either stop supporting the product and move on, or do what needs to be done rules-wise at our own tables. 

At no point do you need to insult people over these problems. 

[Herr Brackhaus]

Personally, I love the fiction part of Shadowrun. I've been buying the novels since I was a kid and continue to do so to this day.

But I agree with adzling on the content of the actual game books. The rulebooks, while streamlined, are messy; rules for subjects that should be related (*cough* RIGGERS! *cough*) being spread across multiple chapters is no secret, and it doesn't help that the current strategy seems to be to write content in silos. That Rigger 5.0 was written without knowledge of what was in Hard Targets is a fact admitted by the writer himself, and while I like the book in general it annoys me that rules keep flip-flopping (I'm looking at you, repair costs).

I have to echo one thing mentioned before; the writers, in my opinion, do good work with the guidelines they are given. The problem, and Catalyst has admitted as much themselves, is the editing process. The rules are spread out, or vague to the point of being unintelligible, and having to cross reference not only a 450 page core rulebook but all of the supplements as well does not make this problem any less obvious.

In short, I really like the overall content of 5th (with the exception of the rigger rules, and don't even get me started on the vagueness of the Matrix in general and technomancers in particular), but we desperately need clear, more concise rules where fiction is kept separate, or failing that some errata documents and clarifications. My opinion only; the rest I'll houserule or make sense of on my own.

With all of that said, I'd like to extent a big thank you to all the freelancers in particular. I love the fiction you all put out, so keep writing those novels and I'll keep buying 'em

To Catalyst, warts and all, I would like to thank you for continuing to support a game I've loved since I was 12-13 years old. I may not play as much anymore (partly because I end up making a lot of house rules ), but the setting is still very much alive and for that, I'm grateful.

[adzling]

When I want a novel I'll buy it (and i do, all the recent srun novels are in my collection).

When I want to play a game, I expect some modicum of effort to be spent on the rules and ensuring they are understandable and work well.

It's evident Catalyst places their effort on cramming as much fiction into their rulesbooks as possible, to the detriment of the reason the books are written in the first place, the quality of the rules.

I have the utmost respect for the freelancers who work for almost no $$ because they love doing it.

[All4BigGuns]

A 200 page rules source should have one chapter of about 40 to 50 pages at the beginning containing all of the 'fluffy bits' for the source with the rest being rules information. Conversely, a 200 page 'fluffy bits' sourcebook should have 40 to 50 pages of rules information added in (probably at the end) based off of the 'fluff' contained in the source.


That said, it is inexcusable to claim respect for the freelancers and in the next breath insult them with accusations of addiction and calling their work 'fan-fic'.

[cantrip]

Personally, I love the fiction part of Shadowrun. I've been buying the novels since I was a kid and continue to do so to this day.

The story, world building and flavor of the 6th world (and the 4th) are what brought me into the shadowrun fold long ago. It's also what keeps me!  It is always interesting to see where the story is headed as well as allowing our table to come up with theories along the way -- once in awhile we would predict something that came out in a sourcebook; we used to think they had a fly on the wall during our games - well, mini-drones now! Game mechanics will come and go through editions, but the story will live on. I am in the position to buy books now on a more regular basis than when I lived on ramen, so I often buy the pdf/book combo on release. While I may like one book over another one, in the big picture I'm supporting shadowrun. I've always felt that the writers of the Shadowrun world pursue their craft as a labor of love - I get the feeling many of them were players originally. If I had the talent to write, it would be an honor to take part.

To the OP, you can chalk me up for a +1

[adzling]

My comment re: addiction was that Catalyst is addicted to fluff/ fiction/ whatever you want to call it.
To the detriment of their focus on creating usesable/ well-crafted/ easily understood rules.

That is in no way or shape a put-down towards the freelancers.

You can take umbrage of my use of the term fan-fic if you like, as I actually did say that.

[tytalan]

Adzling, here the Definition of fan-fic "Fan fiction or fanfiction (also abbreviated to fan fic, fanfic, or fic) is fiction about characters or settings from an original work of fiction, created by fans of that work rather than by its creator. It is a popular form of fan labor, particularly since the advent of the Internet."  IT DOES NOT APPLY TO ANYTHING IN OFFICALE PUBLICATIONS.

That said All4Bigguns we all know about you magic page count set that you alone have determined is the only way to write a gamming book.  And I do not want to go over this again so we will leave it at that.

I do think there is a real problem and I’ve seen examples of it on the forms.  Catalyst is giving little or no oversite on what its freelancers are writing.  Example someone is hired to wright a book on technomancers instead of being given some short of out line with a we want this and this they seem to told just write it and go to the forms to get their entire resources.  This lack of oversight is why rules are conflicting and we get books like Data Trails that is supposed to be the Decker book but instead has less than 10 pages on Decker’s and Decks and the rest is about A.I.’s and new web types.  I’m still waiting on the Decker’s book.   Rigger’s has all the vehicle Mods and Drones but there is just about nothing about/for the Rigger’s themselves I would have loved 20-40 less pages on this vehicle and drone and instead being dedicated to Control Console’s,  Rigger’s and Rigger’s cyber wear.

Most larger game companies have a line manager and a continuity team who are supposed to support and direct the freelance writers.  This is what Shadowrun 5 seems to be missing.  If Catalyst does have such a team they need to either do their jobs or be replace.  Attacking the Freelancers is wrong and counterproductive.

[Mr. Grey]

Personally, I love the fiction part of Shadowrun. I've been buying the novels since I was a kid and continue to do so to this day.

The story, world building and flavor of the 6th world (and the 4th) are what brought me into the shadowrun fold long ago. It's also what keeps me!  It is always interesting to see where the story is headed as well as allowing our table to come up with theories along the way -- once in awhile we would predict something that came out in a sourcebook; we used to think they had a fly on the wall during our games - well, mini-drones now! Game mechanics will come and go through editions, but the story will live on. I am in the position to buy books now on a more regular basis than when I lived on ramen, so I often buy the pdf/book combo on release. While I may like one book over another one, in the big picture I'm supporting shadowrun. I've always felt that the writers of the Shadowrun world pursue their craft as a labor of love - I get the feeling many of them were players originally. If I had the talent to write, it would be an honor to take part.

To the OP, you can chalk me up for a +1

I have to agree with this. Since I started SR, I have enjoyed what has been put out. Sure the rules haven't always been the best written or there is something they introduce into the game that I don't particularly like, but overall I find 5th to be far better than fourth or third. I think it has done a good job of portraying the setting and making it go beyond the crunch. When I look at the sheer amount of rules, it isn't surprising that things aren't perfect. I've seen simpler systems with problems as well. SR2 had huge rule holes in it, but we had a blast and I believe that is true for 5th should I ever get a group together.

[Patrick Goodman]

If you respect us so damn much, Adzling, quit denigrating our work as "cheap" or "shovelwork fan-fic." That is, in fact, a major putdown of the freelancers. You can deny it until the stars all burn out, but it's an insult to our work and thus an insult to us. I put a lot into those words. Those words are time spent away from my kids after not seeing them  all day because of my day job. Cheap? The hell they are.

And as an aside, fluff is no less than crunch. They both pay exactly the same.

[All4BigGuns]

That said All4Bigguns we all know about you magic page count set that you alone have determined is the only way to write a gamming book.  And I do not want to go over this again so we will leave it at that.

First off, the 200 pages that I mentioned was merely an example. That would basically be rules-texts being 75 to 80 percent rules (not an unfair expectation) with 20 to 25 fluff bits compiled into the opening chapter (again, not unfair expectation).

Separating most of the setting info like that into separate texts that only have a little bit of rules at the end keeps those sources valid across multiple editions. Heck, they could then reprint them as new editions come about only altering the rules section at the end (which being the smallest portion means minimal additional cost on their part).

[tytalan]

All4BigGuns did I not say I did not want to go over this again? So maybe you can read my post for a change and fine out my point.  thank You

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

+1 to Herr Brackhaus! Almost perfectly my grips with Catalyst and my almost sole experience with ShadowRun. Love the setting, but man, the rules. That said, I will done degraded the writers. They do fine work. While I personally would prefer the set up of fluff then rules (and always in that order, in every chapter, book, and even quality/skill/gear/spell/etc) I don't think it will happen. I personally think the best product overall has been Run Faster, fallowed by Rigger 5.0, Run and Gun, and the CRB. With Run and Gun the almost perfect level of fluff to crunch for me. This is not to say every book is not without issues, but some of that is due (in my opinion) to flawed editing and line direction. I will continue to support ShadowRun 5th, but only in PDF form (free updates, when they finally happen). My reasoning being my CRB starting falling apart a year after I bought it. But again, that is a grip with Catalyst not the free writers who help us formum goers try to understand what is going on in the rules and fluff of this amazing setting.

Again, thanks guys for all your hard work keeping the 6th world alive, both in fluff and rules.

[adzling]

Hey Patrick, my beef is with Catalyst's poor line editing, not the freelancers.

I unreservedly and wholeheartedly apologize to you and the rest of the freelancers.

If you respect us so damn much, Adzling, quit denigrating our work as "cheap" or "shovelwork fan-fic." That is, in fact, a major putdown of the freelancers. You can deny it until the stars all burn out, but it's an insult to our work and thus an insult to us. I put a lot into those words. Those words are time spent away from my kids after not seeing them  all day because of my day job. Cheap? The hell they are.

And as an aside, fluff is no less than crunch. They both pay exactly the same.

[thePrimarch]

And as an aside, fluff is no less than crunch. They both pay exactly the same.

Then, not to be a jerk, but can we have some more crunch?

...Yeah, okay, I admit, I come off as a jerk with that line. Let me be more specific. If I cover things others have already said in this thread, I apologize.

I like Shadowrun, and I like 5E a lot -- I think the Core Book for 5E features a very strong, streamlined set of rules that works consistently well for most uses. And I like a lot of the crunch provided after it -- Chrome Flesh has good crunchy bits within it, and Rigger 5.0 is great.

I also like a lot of Shadowrun fluff. The Sioux Nation book is neat (gotta say, I really like that you're adding national splatbooks, and I humbly request more of those -- and city splatbooks as well), Hard Targets had great stuff on Cuba, and several books have great short fiction written into them.

I think a lot of current complaints about the state of 5E stem more from disorganization than actual inherent problems. The problems with Errata are inherent for most RPG companies, and while they're an issue, they happen. Same with editing problems -- those are normal. They could use a round or two of fixup, but they aren't crippling. Same with the table of contents issues. However, disorganized, scattered rules heavily mixed with fluff make for hard to read sections that are difficult for GMs to page through mid-game, and can make keeping track of what's going on difficult for editors, GMs, and players alike. That's a bit of a problem, and leads to some of the issues with rules repetitions and confusing rulings for particularly character builds. The larger issue (in my opinion) is the mix of fluff and crunch within sourcebooks.

While the concept of the Dragon Civil War was hinted at repeatedly throughout 4E's sourcebooks (hinting is good), the only sections focusing on it were relegated to specific setting books that covered ongoing plots and only ongoing plots, with a smattering of extra crunch to go with it. This segregation is good -- the Dragon Civil War is a situation of larger interest to longer campaigns and higher-level runners than it is to lower-level runners and people who don't intend to use it in their campaign arcs. Separating it into its own zone allowed players and GMs to eject it without much issue, and meant that GMs who intended to use it could safely hand splatbooks to players without risking spoiler exposure.

Some of the current core splatbooks for 5E did not feature this separation. Chrome Flesh is an especially good example. With two large segments featuring CFD and rules surrounding it, many players felt like the book's core concept ('ware) had been skimped or ignored in favor of metaplot material. It also made it seem that CFD had been pushed to the forefront of this edition, taking priority over the primary goal of the game (Shadowrunning) rather than serving as a backdrop for it.

In addition... I'm going to be honest, I'm not super-enthusiastic about CFD. As much as I like AIs, I have trouble expressing sympathy for AI mind rapists (escaped test subjects or not), and feel like it is turning into a Crash 2.0 level of worldwide catastrophy that isn't easy for the players to impact or necessarily very visible in the technology, industry, and organizations that Shadowrun is built on. But that's fine -- I also never used the Dragon Civil War as anything more than a backdrop, but I still enjoyed 4E enough to buy the books that featured it.

What made this more palatable is that they were separated from the main splatbooks. My players were free to ignore Conspiracy Theory and buy just the core books while I enjoyed it (and prayed for a scene featuring Harlequin being converted into a fine red mist by an inattentive rigger in a school bus). I could, and do, treat CFD the same way. I just have to deal with my players complaining about a "thinner and less useful" core 'ware book at the same time.

I hope this helps. Not trying to rail against you guys here.

Can I also request some crunch on larger vehicle weapons? I know I hear people talking about how 4E's War wasn't very popular, but I would enjoy some rules on larger-scale military vehicles for 5E. And maybe something on 2070 military and security tactics. These aren't things your average Shadowrunner will run into all the time, but opening up new branches of play (mercenaries, metaplane explorers, "celebrity" runners, etc) has rarely hurt in the past, and opens up a lot of potential play.